Why aren't there RCA connections between speakers and receivers/amps?

C

crp762

Audiophyte
OK, probably a silly question, but it bugs me that I can't figure it out myself:

So, why isn't there an RCA-connector based connection option for connecting speakers to their power sources (ie red and white connectors at both ends? I'm wondering this as I'm stripping bare wire and attaching banana-plugs. It would be nice to just plug into the speaker at one end and power source at the other.

Thanks,
crp
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Simply put, these are inferior to virtually any other speaker connections. In the past, low/entry level stuff used them but once equipment reaches a certain level of sophistication, they are replaced with for 5 way binding posts or even push-to-insert terminals, both of which are far superior.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
OK, probably a silly question, but it bugs me that I can't figure it out myself:
I know where you are coming from here, I will try to explain it as best I can.

So, why isn't there an RCA-connector based connection option for connecting speakers to their power sources (ie red and white connectors at both ends?)
Back in the 50s through to the 70s it was a common speaker connector type. Often times the wires were "fixed" lengths and the wire gauge was quite low. If the ends became damaged or the wire itself was worn out the entire cable would have to be replaced. Basically it's outdated, and irrelevant in modern sound equipment. The closest thing you may find today that resembles it would be TRS connectors in pro audio, but that connector is more robust than RCAs ever were.

I'm wondering this as I'm stripping bare wire and attaching banana-plugs.
This pretty much explains it here. You can buy a big spool of wire of whatever type and gauge you prefer and terminate the ends with whatever connect you feel works best for you.

It would be nice to just plug into the speaker at one end and power source at the other.
Outside home theater in a box systems you just won't find one quick connect cable ends for speakers. They limit flexibility in modern systems. Why would we want to limit ourselves to 20 gauge RCA speaker leads? Sure it's convenient and easy, but if you wanted that you would buy Bose or some other all-in-one home theater in a box system.
 
C

crp762

Audiophyte
Simply put, these are inferior to virtually any other speaker connections. In the past, low/entry level stuff used them but once equipment reaches a certain level of sophistication, they are replaced with for 5 way binding posts or even push-to-insert terminals, both of which are far superior.
markw:

Thanks!

So, one follow-on question to possibly make my life a bit easier when I connect or change speaker connections:
I have a Marantz NR-1604 AVR which has speaker posts with multiple ways to connect the speakers. To date, I've only connected speakers to the AVR using bare wire that I slide "under" the twist-knob of the post, angled at a "2 o-clock, 8 o-clock" orientation the AVR requires:
(I'd post a picture of the back panel, but I don't have 10 forum posts yet)

Are there other connectors I could add to the bare speaker wire I'm currently using? I've tried the banana-plug connectors I'm using at the speaker end, but they don't seem to completely "seat" in the AVR.

Thanks again.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
(I'd post a picture of the back panel, but I don't have 10 forum posts yet)
No need, we know what the binding posts look like.

Are there other connections I could add to the bare speaker wire I'm currently using?
Didn't you just say you were putting banana plugs on the cable ends? That should make connecting the speakers pretty easy. Just make sure they fit snugly. The last thing you want is for one to fall out and touch another connector causing a short that would damage the receiver. That receiver only accepts bare wire or banana plugs, no spades.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
markw:

I've tried the banana-plug connectors I'm using at the speaker end, but they don't seem to completely "seat" in the AVR.

Thanks again.
Many of those AVR terminals are twist lock.
Turn it to left to insert banana plug, then twist to the right
 
C

crp762

Audiophyte
AH! I didn't get that the connector is twist-to-lock. I'll try that when I'm back home.
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai

So, why isn't there an RCA-connector based connection option for connecting speakers to their power sources (ie red and white connectors at both ends? I'm wondering this as I'm stripping bare wire and attaching banana-plugs. It would be nice to just plug into the speaker at one end and power source at the other.
Well, for at least a couple reasons. For one, RCAs have generally been overused in consumer electronics. They’ve been used for both audio and video connections, as well as digital signal feeds, and yes even for speaker connections, as Seth mentioned. Some of these applications require a different cable type. For instance, video and digital signals are best delivered with a 75-ohm shielded coaxial cable. Basic analog audio doesn’t necessarily require 75-ohm cable, but it does required shielded cable. Speaker wire, on the other hand, does not require shielded cable, which is why something like standard zip cord is adequate and indeed typically used.

IMO there should be a different connector type for each application. This is because confused people often get the wrong cable type for their application, thinking “it’s got RCA connectors, so we’re good.” If speaker wire (i.e. unshielded zip cord) with RCAs was commonplace, I assure you that forums like this would be inundated with people asking questions like “why do I have a hum in my system?” or “why does my picture have lines in it?” when they tried to use RCA speaker cable for their analog audio or video connections between components.

Second, it’s commonly acknowledged that good speaker wire should 14- or 12-gauge wire. So, tell ya what: Get a piece of 14-gauge speaker wire and a loose RCA plug from Radio Shack (or the vendor of your choice). Then see if you can figure out how to get the RCA’s barrel over that thick wire, much less solder it up without melting the vinyl the RCA’s center pin is sitting in.

When you think about it, once you attach your speaker cables to the banana plugs at both ends, you then have a “plug and play” cable. Just remember to go back and re-tighten all the screws in a year or so.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
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C

crp762

Audiophyte

Well, for at least a couple reasons. For one, RCAs have generally been overused in consumer electronics. They’ve been used for both audio and video connections, as well as digital signal feeds, and yes even for speaker connections, as Seth mentioned. Some of these applications require a different cable type. For instance, video and digital signals are best delivered with a 75-ohm shielded coaxial cable. Basic analog audio doesn’t necessarily require 75-ohm cable, but it does required shielded cable. Speaker wire, on the other hand, does not require shielded cable, which is why something like standard zip cord is adequate and indeed typically used.

IMO there should be a different connector type for each application. This is because confused people often get the wrong cable type for their application, thinking “it’s got RCA connectors, so we’re good.” If speaker wire (i.e. unshielded zip cord) with RCAs was commonplace, I assure you that forums like this would be inundated with people asking questions like “why do I have a hum in my system?” or “why does my picture have lines in it?” when they tried to use RCA speaker cable for their analog audio or video connections between components.

Second, it’s commonly acknowledged that good speaker wire should 14 or 12-guage wire. So, tell ya what: Get a piece of 14-guage speaker and wire a loose RCA plug from Radio Shack (or the vendor of your choice). Then see if you can figure out how to get the RCA’s barrel over that thick wire, much less solder it up without melting the vinyl the RCA’s center pin is sitting in.

When you think about it, once you attach your speaker cables to the banana plugs at both ends, you then have a “plug and play” cable. Just remember to go back and re-tighten all the screws in a year or so.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Wayne:

Thanks for taking the time to write your reply - that's a big help. The rationale behind my original post was my frustration over having to thread and re-thread the bare speaker wire connections I had at my AVR while demo'ing new speakers. I didn't realize that I COULD use banana plug connectors (just twist & lock).

Signed:
Old dog trying to learn
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Not to be overlooked, an RCA connector (remember there has to be 2 items to source, the jack in the unit and the plug at the cable) is a relatively expensive option, especially when no connector (bare wire) is a perfectly reasonable option. The result is any RCA amp-speaker connector you might find is incredibly cheaply made.

There is, however, an incentive to use RCA plugs and jacks for the amplifier>speaker connection. Since the United States Federal Trade Commission (US-FTC or just FTC) passed a law in 1974, after years of abuse by audio manufacturers, that regulated how a brand could specify output power on audio component specification sheets and in advertising, one exemption is that the system is not composed of components at all, but is one closed system.

If your amp to speaker connection was via a captured RCA cable, it well establishes that you are not looking at an audio component, which is critical as the law specifically refers to components (separate pieces, like a tuner and an amp or receiver and speakers that could come from more than one manufacturer). Thus you can exaggerate (some would say lie) about power output of a system if you use captured RCA connectors.

My favourite is an LG "Home Theatre in a Box" system for sale a few years ago (and sold well) that boasted over 900 watts output, but measured at around 20 wpc via the "FTC Method". Legal with RCAs to the speaker.

Note that no multichannel amp or receiver need follow the FTC rule on power, as the law specifically states that it applies to stereo and mono amplifiers only.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Note that no multichannel amp or receiver need follow the FTC rule on power, as the law specifically states that it applies to stereo and mono amplifiers only.
Although the FTC decided it would not revise it's rule about stating amplifier power to reflect all channels on multi-channel amps and receivers, it didn't completely ignore them. The FTC still requires that multi-channel amps & receivers be rated (for RMS power continuously available over 5 minutes, at 8 ohms, over the range of 20-20,000 Hz, at a stated THD level) when two channels are driven.

I didn't know the other info about RCA jacks that you related. Thanks.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The RCA jack is a line level connector and below and not adequate for the current in a speaker circuit.

Some years ago there was a move, of which I was in favor, to make the Neutric Speakon connector the standard for speaker connections. Peter Walker was heavily in favor of this. But as usual most in the industry wanted the cheap solution rather than the elegant.



 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
The RCA jack is a line level connector and below and not adequate for the current in a speaker circuit.

Some years ago there was a move, of which I was in favor, to make the Neutric Speakon connector the standard for speaker connections. Peter Walker was heavily in favor of this. But as usual most in the industry wanted the cheap solution rather than the elegant.



The problem with the speakon connector in home theater is its size. There is no problem putting a couple of them on the back of a stereo power amp but putting 5 or 7 or 9 of them on the back of an AV receiver is probably impossible. It sure is the elegant solution, though, as you say.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The problem with the speakon connector in home theater is its size. There is no problem putting a couple of them on the back of a stereo power amp but putting 5 or 7 or 9 of them on the back of an AV receiver is probably impossible. It sure is the elegant solution, though, as you say.
Yet another reason not to like receivers.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Yet another reason not to like receivers.
I have a 350 watt per channel amplifier in my equipment closet that has speakon connectors. The reason it isn't connected to my home theater is that it isn't necessary. My receiver already has more power capacity than I need.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Although the FTC decided it would not revise it's rule about stating amplifier power to reflect all channels on multi-channel amps and receivers, it didn't completely ignore them. The FTC still requires that multi-channel amps & receivers be rated (for RMS power continuously available over 5 minutes, at 8 ohms, over the range of 20-20,000 Hz, at a stated THD level) when two channels are driven.

I didn't know the other info about RCA jacks that you related. Thanks.
*IF* the multichannel amp or receiver specifies a power output into two channels; the FTC does not require that the 2-channel power specification be included in the published specification sheet.

Reminds me of Rolls-Royce who, until legislation compelled auto manufacturers to specify a power output only a few years ago, simply didn't publish one. The Rolls-Royce product literature famously published the horsepower and torque figures as "engine power is adequate".

Thanks for your clarification of the FTC regulations.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
*IF* the multichannel amp or receiver specifies a power output into two channels; the FTC does not require that the 2-channel power specification be included in the published specification sheet.
Present FTC regulations for audio amplifiers, see:
FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION 16 CFR Part 432
Trade Regulation Rule Relating to Power Output Claims for Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/federal_register_notices/trade-regulation-rule-relating-power-output-claims-amplifiers-utilized-home-entertainment-products/100126homeentertainment.pdf

In brief, this ruling said:

The Commission has determined that it will not seek to amend the Rule to permit manufacturers to use the EIA/CEA-490-A standard as an alternative for rating the power output of multichannel amplifiers. Allowing this alternate standard would invite consumer confusion because the EIA/CEA-490-A standard and the Rule
would produce different testing results. Consequently, consumers would not be able to compare amplifiers measured under one standard to amplifiers measured under the other standard – a significant problem that led to the promulgation of the Rule.

The Commission also has determined that it will not amend the Rule to define all channels of a multi-channel home theater system as "associated" channels that must be driven to full rated power simultaneously for measuring power output. Sony commented that "the additional channels in today’s 5.1 and 7.1 home theater systems are designed to carry vastly different sounds at vastly different levels". Sony commented further that "to maintain the same power ratings if it were necessary to drive all channels simultaneously during testing, virtually all manufacturers would have to change the sound platform of their amplifiers and receivers to be able to sustain such output," which "would drive up the costs of production considerably, [and] in turn drive up the ultimate cost to consumers."

The Commission has received no contrary evidence indicating that all channels of a multi-channel home
theater system frequently would be driven to maximum power simultaneously during typical playback
conditions in home use. Absent such evidence, the Rule should not be amended.

… Specifically, at a minimum, the left front and right front channels of multichannel amplifiers are associated under the Rule. It, therefore, would be a violation of the Rule to make power output claims for multichannel amplifiers utilized in home entertainment products unless those representations are substantiated by measurements made with, at a minimum, the left front and right front channels driven to full rated power…
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Yes, I'm aware of the killing of the revisions to the FTC rules with the dawn of multichannel (Home Theatre) audio. There was tremendous and continuous lobbying by the large consumer manufacturers to not adopt any amendments at all.

One reason, cited in interviews and other casual sources, and typically described as the "real reason", but never submitted formally to the FTC, was the fear that people who had bought HT gear prior to any rule change would be pissed upon the revised spec sheet showing them they didn't actually buy a -"200 watt", or whatever- component.
 
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