Whats worse, the open layout or the little room?

[abefroeman]

There are 2 places to put speakers in my condo. A living room that is open to the dining room, kitchen and entryway. Its assymetric in everyway. Or the other option is a 10x10x9 2nd bedroom.

There will be a TV + 5.1 in the 2nd bedroom and it will be treated with some basic acoustic panels, but I am trying to decide if there should be a 2-channel setup in the living room due to extra space. Or if my mains should serve as the 2-channel system.

Who wins in the open plan vs. square room battle?

 

[jostenmeat]

square room = nightmare

very small room = nightmare

very small square room = freddy kruger's nightmare

hehe, I might be exaggerating, but I vote for open assymetrical room.

 

[no. 5]

Who wins in the open plan vs. square room battle?

Open plan wins! Open plan wins!


And I like the avatar too.

 

[j_garcia]

I agree.

Square footprint = bad, Actually square = REALLY bad.

 

[speakerman39]

I agree.

Square footprint = bad, Actually square = REALLY bad.

John, my small ht room is oblong shaped coming in at 706 ft.^3. Is this not a good idea to put my ht?? More specifically, it is approximately 15' X 7.5' X 7'. However, there is a closet that reduces the room to the 706 ft.^3 when closed. I can also fully enclose the room. So far, it has sounded quite impressive. Perhaps, I need to re-think things a bit. Appreciate some good advise here John.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[mike c]

2nd bedroom

theory:

what if you could heavily treat the front and back wall to simulate a longer room?

 

[abefroeman]

thats no good.

It is actually square to the inch, except for a window on one side.

This just throws all my plans out the window. Its 2.0 in the small room right now with a TV, maybe I will make it 2.1 and leave it there. Not worth spending money on a bad room. I really did want to get surround sound though.

From the listening I have done so far, I can tell there is a lot more echo. The clap test confirms it. This is the reason for the planned room treatment.

 

[abefroeman]

Mike C,

Coincidentally, the room treatment was planned for the front and back walls due to windows doors and a closet on the side walls.

Something like 3 x 2'x4'x4" OC705 on the front and rear walls.

 

[mike c]

Mike C,

Coincidentally, the room treatment was planned for the front and back walls due to windows doors and a closet on the side walls.

Something like 3 x 2'x4'x4" OC705 on the front and rear walls.

unfortunately, when i say heavily treated, i was thinking FULL wall treatments, and not panels. if that's not possible, go for the open layout.

 

[fmw]

The problem with a small room is that the reflected sound hits the ears so quickly after the direct sound that the result isn't reverberation. It is something else that I can tell you isn't ideal for listening. If you must use a small room, you need to deaden it and listen near field. It is a huge compromise, but better than those tiny duration reverberations.

The larger space will be more difficult to fill with sound but the reverberations will sound more natural. Even a poorly shaped larger area will normally provide a better result than a small room. Been there, done that.

 

[abefroeman]

Hmm, this thread is eye opening for me. I knew small rooms were bad, but I guess I thought treatment would get most of it.

The open space has its issues as well, there is a fierce echo, but we don't have any rugs yet. Rugs should quiet it down some. Its all hardwood floors, glass, wood, walls and kitchen right now. Leather furniture too, so no absorbtion there.

Full wall absorbtion is not going to happen given the WAF.

 

[itschris]

I've been playing with my old equipment, trying to setup a 2 channel room in the back extra room which is about 15x12. I thought the open room setup, where my new stuff is now, was bad accoustics... however, in this bedroom, it's really bad. I get all kinds of reflections and wierd bass response. I can only imagine that the open layout would have to be tons better in your application.

 

[mike c]

make sure to get some heavy curtains for the open space. tell the wife you need "blackout" curtains blackout curtains have an additional cloth behind the curtain to really keep out the light.

 

[abefroeman]

Mike C,
There won't be a tv in the open room. So no need for blackout curtains unless you think the blackout fabric has acoustic value. It's not on command of the wife either, the layout is poor. TV is way off to the left and up high.

Its the 08: Pirece

Link

Also, there are already blackout 'shades' in the 2nd bedroom. They are heavy accordioned fabric that drops down in a similar fashion to a typical adjustable metal shade. That second bedroom will be the TV room, so . But it sounds like I will be trying to make a 2-channel set-up work in the main area.

 

[mike c]

oh the blackout curtains isn't for the tv you're right it's for acoustics.

if the setup is going into the 2nd bedroom, why does WAF still apply? personally, i'd go for the 2nd bedroom with heavily treated front and back walls. (that's if WAF can be overruled in that room)

 

[abefroeman]

if the setup is going into the 2nd bedroom, why does WAF still apply?

It applies cuz the bedroom is right off the living room. As you can see by the floor plan its so close that guests will be in and out of there.

That said, I could go pretty heavy on the treatment, probably not corner straddling room treatment, but quite a bit of front and rear wall coverage. Also the ceiling is very open to absorbtion.

 

[jostenmeat]

abefroeman,

Just want to share my experiences. I was really excited to do a dedicated stereo room recently. It is an acoustical nightmare unfortunately. Its larger than your room, not very big, but at least rectangular.

Ive corresponded with probably 30 emails with a couple of knowledgable people. I bought 300 lbs of the best acoustical treatments I know of, on the used market. (10x HF Mondo Traps). I also have a curtain in the back, which does hide two of the treatments. Typically, they say its the front wall that benefits the most. Some persons, like Ethan Winer, use some insane number of treatments, I believe over 40.

Its still better, but treatments are not necessarily miracle workers by any means, IMO. I am already foreseeing doing a very serious downgrade in speakers now. Im just taking my sweet ol time before I see my beloved speakers depart. Unfortunately, my home is no longer worthy of my speakers. (But at least my HT is taking to the steroids very well )

*Some folks would say a square room is just not worth it, no matter what, period.

I know you obviously are already, but proceed with caution before spending a lot on treatments. I'm sorry about the bad news.

See what you can pull off in the larger room.

 

[MDS]

*Some folks would say a square room is just not worth it, no matter what, period.

There are some rules of thumb and that is one of them. The other common one is that no dimension should be an exact multiple of the other (7.5' x 15' would be a no-no).

That's all well and good and I like learning about that kind of thing..but, before you learned anything about this stuff did it really bother you? The real world requires that you do the best you can and that's that.

An off topic but similar case in point. I'm an avid skater, been skating since I was a baby. I never knew anything about the relationship between the size of the plate and the boot, cushion hardness, etc and yet it never affected me in any way. I know people that can do amazing things on what would now be considered crap boots with crap plates and crap wheels.

Audio is similar. We strive for the 'best' but best is relative and unfortunately there are constraints that limit our quest for the 'best' - like WAF, size, shape, cost, etc. In a few months, I'll have all the expensive home upgrades out of the way and will upgrade my system. I will guarantee that if I post pictures, people will say 'move the speakers further apart, forward, back, whatever' but I can't - the room dictates placement and size/color/appearance are big factors in what I consider viable candidates for speakers. I guess all I am saying is that when presented with a 'problem' you do the best you can to make it better but if it isn't perfect, it really shouldn't detract all that much from the experience. H!ll I've been listening to 192 kbps MP3 on my computer for a long time because my house is in disarray while I do these upgrades...and I still enjoy the music.

 

[jostenmeat]

..but, before you learned anything about this stuff did it really bother you? The real world requires that you do the best you can and that's that...

Audio is similar. We strive for the 'best' but best is relative and unfortunately there are constraints that limit our quest for the 'best' ....you do the best you can to make it better but if it isn't perfect, it really shouldn't detract all that much from the experience... while I do these upgrades...and I still enjoy the music.

Your comments are fully appreciated, and I absolutely agree. I just wanted to make sure he didn't expect treatments to automatically work magic, especially if it was a considerable purchase for him.

As to your question, of course not. Before less than two years ago, I was using a pair of Realistic bookshelves for 15 years. As for the music, that's what I studied formally. All of my degrees are in classical music performance. Masters at perennial top 5 school, and extended studies in Europe while teaching it as a professor at a small school.

You are preaching to the choir.

 

[MDS]

You are preaching to the choir.

Yeah, I remember some good discussions with you (and fmw, I think) about music. (I learned a lot). I have zero training with music but am a music enthusiast at heart. I'd kick azz at 'name that tune' in three notes (if it were '70s and '80s' music).

I want the 'best' too but I find that my attitude changes over time and I will accept 'the best I can do' (within all the constraints like budget/size/shape/appearance) and still be reasonably happy with what I have.