What's the deal with cables?

[MarkSJohnson]

I'm new to these forums, and have only posted once before. As a courtesy to others, I didn't dare to post this question without registering as a true member first! ;>)

By way of introduction:

I'm Mark and I think I'm an Audioholic... (crowd murmurs "Hello Mark")...

Years ago, I was really into the "whole thing" with NAD separates and at 16, my turntable costing me more than my car did. Then, I got away from the "whole thing" for lack of time and more interest in movies than music. Sold all the high-end stuff, bought a cheapo Dolby Surround receiver and said everything was fine.

Now here I am years later owning a video production company with a home theater that's less impressive than many of my clients'. I took my first step yesterday with the purchase of a Denon 3805 receiver. Soon, I'll be looking for the new Denon Universal Player, a bigger/better monitor and some new speakers.

There. Now that you know me, you might be less upset with me when I ask the question that has plagued Audioholics for a couple of decades (and has likely been discussed here ad naseum in the past):

What's the deal with cables?

I've looked through previous posts in this forum and have read discussions regarding Monster vs. A/R vs. companies I've never heard of. I want to install my new receiver this weekend and don't want to use the bin of old cheapo RCA cables I've accumulated over the last 20 years, but I'm not so sure I want to go out and buy $500 worth of Monsters either. In my profession, I’ve learned much about not using cheapos because of the poor shielding,, etc... Mailorder won't be of help since I want the cables today or tomorrow.

I saw the debate 20 years ago, and I see it today. Hasn't anyone YET done a blind A/B test to determine if cables do or do not make a difference?

M

 

[gene]

Mark;

Welcome aboard. Spend some time in our Cable Info Center and you will see the comparisions and detailed analysis on cables that we have made.

The bottom line is only poorly designed cables sound different. While measurable differences in good cables exist, it often takes drastic differences in these measurements to result in audible differences. Unlike far more complex topics (Acoustics, Relativity, Time Travel) and despite what many cable vendors and forum cult hobbyists would have you believe, there is nothing in cable science that cannot be explained or analyzed. In addition, just because you think you may hear a difference, doesn't necessarily follow that there must be a difference. The psychology of cables and human perception often have more influence on perceived sonic differences than attributed to actual real differences.

You don't need to spend alot of money to achieve the law of diminishing returns on cables. Beyond a very minimal price point on cables you are paying for cosmetics, product appeal, or fancy terminations.

We have a list of quality, yet affordable cable vendors located in our Online Shopping Area of our site. I will be adding a few more vendors after I am done testing out their products and ensuring no snake oil claims accompany them.

 

[MarkSJohnson]

Thank You!

Excellent!

Thank you Gene! It seems that the deeper I get into this site and it's community, the more impressed I am!

M

 

[mtrycrafts]

What's the deal with cables?

I've looked through previous posts in this forum and have read discussions regarding Monster vs. A/R vs. companies I've never heard of. I want to install my new receiver this weekend and don't want to use the bin of old cheapo RCA cables I've accumulated over the last 20 years, but I'm not so sure I want to go out and buy $500 worth of Monsters either. In my profession, I’ve learned much about not using cheapos because of the poor shielding,, etc... Mailorder won't be of help since I want the cables today or tomorrow.

I saw the debate 20 years ago, and I see it today. Hasn't anyone YET done a blind A/B test to determine if cables do or do not make a difference?

M

The big deal is money. How else would companies make it if they don't market their products whether or not the product stands up to the claims

Then enters human psychology and human gullibility

Audio is no different form any other consumer marketplace. Why would it be?
People buy the expensive sugar in the store. Just check it next time in there shopping

I would not throw away anoy of your old cables unless they don't work but I doubt 20 years will make it inoperable just because of time. Use them first. They work. They work as well as any you will buy today. This isn't rocket science or similar to what Gene mentioned

Since you are in a similar business, to answer your question about A/B testing, there have certainly been a number over the past 25 + years. So far the only audible differences were when comparing 24 ga speaker cables with 16ga and 12 ga. This was the legendary Larry Greenhill paper back in the 1980s.
I am posting some interesting reading material if you are inclined to explore reality. The Greenhill paper is cited as well. Certainly not all of these contain A/B testing. These * that do:

CABLES:

-References-

http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_405262383 *


"Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing", Greiner, R.A., JAES vol. 28, no. 5 May 80, pg

"Another Look at Speaker Cables", Greiner, R.A., BAS Speaker Dec 78, addendum March 79

"Cables and the Amp Speaker Interface", Greiner, R.A., Audio, Aug 89, addendum Nov 89,

"Forum: Twist and Turns", Greiner, R.A., Audio, Jan 92, pg.

"Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", Davis, Fred E., JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91, pg.

"Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility", Davis, Fred E., Audio, Jul 93, pg.

"Alpha-Core Goertz M1 & M2 Speaker Cables", Davis, Fred E., Audio, Aud 94, pg. 64, 65.

"The Amp/Speaker Interface", Meyer, E.B., Stereo Review, June 91, pg

"Cable and Sound Delivery", Newell, P., Studio Sound, Jul 91, pg

"Cable Bound", Olsher, D., Stereophile, Jul 88, pg

"Getting Wired", Warren, R., Stereo Review, Jun 90, pg.

"Loudspeaker Cables", Moir, J., Hi-Fi News& Record Review, May 79, pg.

"Making the Right Connections", Murray, E., CD Review, Aud 91, pg.

"Speaker Cables Compared", Ward, C. J., Thompson and Harling M., BAS Speaker, Apr 80,

"Speaker Cables: Science or Snake Oil", Pass, Nelson, Speaker Builder, Feb 80, pg.

"What's All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?", Pease, R. A., Electronic Digest, Dec 27, 90, pg.

"What's All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?", Pease, R. A., part 2, Electronic Design, Jul 11, 91, pg.

"Will 'Beasty' Speaker Cables Improve your Audio?", Honeycutt, R. A., Radio-Electronics, Feb 91, pg.

"The Wire and Cable Scene: Facts, Fictions and Frauds", Aczel, P. The Audio Critic, Part I- Issue 15, Spring-Winter 90-91; Part II-Issue 16, Spring-Fall 91, pg 51-57; Part III- issue 17, Winter 91-92, pg.50-52.

"Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian, Audio lab test, Audio Scene Canada, Jun 81, pg 24-27. *

"Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?", Greenhill, Larry, Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51. *

"Cable Conflicts: The Mystery of Getting Wired", Klein, Larry, Electronics Now, Dec 93, pg. 80& 83.

"Wired Wisdom, The Great Chicago Cable Caper", Nousaine, Tom, Sound & Vision(Canada), Sep 95, pg. 73-76. *

"Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the FooFooDust", Hayward, James, Part 1- Marshall's Audio Ideas Guide(Canada) Summer/Fall 94

"Making the Connection. Part Deux: A Closer Look at the Role of Loudspeaker Cables", Hayward, James, Winter 95. Reprints available from Kimberkable.

"1/4" Cable Roundup", Gallagher, Mitch, Keyboard, Apr 99, pg. 44-48. *

"Speaker Cables, Measurements vs Psychoacoustic Data", Villchur, Edgar, Audio, Jul 94, pg 34-37.

"The Truth About Speaker Cables", Hoffman, Williwam R., Popular Electronics, Jul 95, pg 46-48, &93.

"Cross Talk, Do Cables Have a Sonic Personality all their Own?", Kessler, Kehn & Nousaine, Tom, Video, May 96, pg. 36-40.

"Does Wire Directionality Exist?", Lampen, Stephen, Speaker Builder, 3/98, pg 30, 31.

"Walking the High Wire", Butterworth, Brent, Home Theater, Nov 98, pg 94-102

 

[JoeE SP9]

Cables

Make your own cables. Save money and get your money's worth. Try John Risch's site."www.geocities.com/johnrisch/il.htm". This is a PDF file with complete directions and pictures for rolling your own cables. I was going to attach it but it is too large.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Make your own cables. Save money and get your money's worth. Try John Risch's site."www.geocities.com/johnrisch/il.htm". This is a PDF file with complete directions and pictures for rolling your own cables. I was going to attach it but it is too large.

I seriously doubt you can make it cheaper than you can buy some good cables at reasonable prices at place like partsexpress, WalMart and Target if they have waht you need.
On the other hand, if one is inclined to make them even if it turns out to be more, pride of DIY is a benefit.

 

[Mudcat]

I make all my cables, I really mean all. And it is cheaper to buy good cables. But then I don't just solder connectors to wire, I have to wrap each in some fancy schmancy Techflex braid, shrink wrap, etc.. But even without the braid, I think it would be an economic wash to a net lose to roll your own.

 

[JoeE SP9]

DIY cables

I guess you're right Mudcat. Pride does have a lot to do with DIY. Like you I make all my cables. I also make modify amps etc. I made my own racks thanks to TNT Audio. Their double flexy rack works just fine for me.