Welfare for the rich - $700 billion bailout

MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
Well it looks like congress is going to pass the legistlation to invoke the biggest government intervention since the great depression. For anybody living on the moon this proposal is fronted by the Bush adminstration to allow the fed for a 700 billion bailout for failing investment banks paid by your tax
dollars, this is thousands and thousands of dollars of your hard earned money to bail out people and companies who made bad investments. Lets stop and think about this for a second. Who are the players in this frantically trying convince congress and the American people to pass this bill. None other than secretary paulson former CEO of Goldman Sachs. Hmmmm, what is Goldman Sachs, thats right an investment bank! You are telling us that if something is not done then there will be drastic consequences on the economy. I can buy that! Why then the rush to pass the bill. Why the fear tatics? Seems fimiliar right:). For a bill of such importance on the future economy of the united states, for a country that does not believe in socialism or government intervention for that matter, you would think that giving away hundreds of billions of dollars, the government would take more time to consider this plan. This is very very worry some. Congress do not feel pressured to act, stop and think for once! Take your time and get it right! Rant over!
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I just think it perpetuates the same habits that got us into trouble in the first place. I keep hearing that these times call for government intervention, but we are just getting deeper and deeper into this. It isn't really solving anything, it is just postponing the problem and making it bigger when it really does crash.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
According to this article here, "The bill may also only allow the $700 billion to be spent in large chunks rather than all at once."

That's a little ambiguous to me. One idea that had been put forward is that relatively small installments would be approved, so that the need for further installments could be judged at a later date, and the success of previous installments could be evaluated.

While I don't necessarily have great faith in congress to properly follow up on this, that would at least allow time for the current blind panic to die down, and maybe cooler heads would prevail in a few months.

Probably I'm being profoundly over-optimistic.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
I just think it perpetuates the same habits that got us into trouble in the first place. I keep hearing that these times call for government intervention, but we are just getting deeper and deeper into this. It isn't really solving anything, it is just postponing the problem and making it bigger when it really does crash.
From the Republican Party Platform, approved Sept 1, 2008:

"We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself."
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
While I don't necessarily have great faith in congress to properly follow up on this, that would at least allow time for the current blind panic to die down, and maybe cooler heads would prevail in a few months.QUOTE]

I am not trying to makes this into a political debate but we all know how rushing into things have worked out with the current adminstration.
 
E

EJ1

Audioholic Chief
All the little interest groups are going to try to get a chunk of the $700 billion.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
It is once again fear tactics for a power grab. Let the goverment ease your worries. The more involved they have been the worse it has become.

This goes against everything that the country was built upon. This potentially allows even more government control.

Why can't we just face the music. Recessions are essentially corrective economic happenings when things get inflated, especially when artificially inflated (economically speaking). It needs to run it's course. I feel we are just delaying the inevitable. When things hit the fan (major recession/depression), if this goes through, it will be that much worse. The whole system could collapse.


Since congress is failing so badly the next thing we'll see is a "presidential bailout" and we will have a dictatorship. :rolleyes:
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I'm pretty mixed about the whole thing, but I certainly disagree with handing over so much money without real conditions.
 
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Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
It is once again fear tactics for a power grab. Let the goverment ease your worries. The more involved they have been the worse it has become.
Right on, that's exactly what this is ... a 11th hour power grab. Those who read the 'real' news new some last minute Bush Administration power grab was coming, but the driving force was the only question.

It's not $700 Billion total, it's $700 Billion at any one time with NO LIMIT. This week they could snatch up $700 Billion of debt, give it to their elite buddies for pennies on the dollar, then buy $700 Billion more next week. And there's no regulation on types of debt, like your credit card debt for example ... then your own personal assets could seized as well.

I'm a pessimist as far as current affairs go, but rightfully so I think. I've always thought of myself as a Republican, but these people we have now are NOT Republicans. They're something new, call 'em what you want, but they scare the crap out of me.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
I just don't get it. We had a bunch of greedy people decide to give loans to people that couldn't pay them, and now that these loans have been defaulted on, the people that wrote them don't have to be responsible for their actions?!?!? This is the craziest thing I've ever heard of. Not only that, but you want to put $700 billion dollars into the hands of ONE man, with NO Congressional oversight?!?!?

Who the hell comes up with this crap?!?!? :mad:
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Why can't we just face the music. Recessions are essentially corrective economic happenings when things get inflated, especially when artificially inflated (economically speaking). It needs to run it's course. I feel we are just delaying the inevitable. When things hit the fan (major recession/depression), if this goes through, it will be that much worse. The whole system could collapse.
I would agree with you if these bank problems had anything to do with traditional recessionary forces... but they don't. They have a lot to do with bad investments, but they are 100% due to two major problems- A lack of liquidity and a failure in confidence. Like I said in my post the other day in the Enron thread, liquidity for financial institutions is like air and water for human beings, if they cannot access cash they are doomed, and due to the credit crunch there's just not enough money to go around.

Part of the problem is that the securities that these companies hold as assets need to be marked to market- for you non-finance types, this means that the value of the assets changes constantly based on the value in the marketplace, unlike say a piece of machinery which is valued at it's purchase price and then slowly depreciated over time. If you have a asset where the market has completely deteriorated (e.g. mortgage backed securities) it is very hard to determine the value of the asset. Should it be worth nothing? Maybe, since nobody wants to buy it right now. OTOH, if the security is backed by a solid asset (e.g. a pool of mortgages that are current and is constantly paying fee streams) then at some point in the future there is GUARANTEED value in the security because all of the money on the mortgages will be paid, so clearly the security is not worth nothing- it most likely will be worth full value.

The uncertainty in the values of these assets is causing banks to have to write-down their values, in-turn reducing the value of the total assets on their balance sheet, increasing their leverage ratio, reducing their credit-worthiness, and increasing their need for additional cash & collateral. And if you cannot sell your assets to raise capital because there's no market, or sell your stock to raise capital because short sellers are capitalizing on your poor liquidity and driving your share price down, and if you cannot borrow to raise money because you're not going to get any value against your assets... how does your company survive??

We've watched over the past 6 months as 5 major companies have been totally destroyed and at least 20 more have teetered.... not because they have bad business models (in fact, AIG has many outstanding businesses), but because confidence has plummeted and nobody wants to lend anybody else short-term money. Long term rates have shot through the roof. The best most financial institutions have been able to do is to borrow money overnight and to constantly roll it over day to day... eventually you're going to wake up one morning and there will be too much bad news and you realize that you cannot finance your business.

Letting this "play out" would be an even more unmitigated disaster than the bailout plan. The next stop would be the major commercial banks. Imagine what would happen if people thought Chase was going to go under? With Lehman/Bear it was only hedge funds and high wealth folks pulling their accounts... can you picture the run on the bank that Chase would experience??? Talk about armageddon!! The only way to solve this problem is to take all of the troubled assets off the books of banks, recreate a market for them, and then sit back and wait for the value to grow. If done right, the government will make TONS of money off of these distressed assets. They made money on Chrysler & they made money on S&Ls- once the housing market turns around... whether it's 2, 5, or 10 years, the mortgage securities that the government will buy will be worth much more than they pay for them- considering they're only paying cents on the dollar, it's an even better bargain.

I don't like the bailout, I think it sets a horrible precedence, but I think it's better than the alternative. I think some of the new regulations they are setting are a great idea, and one unintended positive consequence is that we will no longer have unregulated stand-alone investment banks. The most important thing is to make sure that liquidity actually gets injected back into the system, which will raise confidence, which in the end should reinvigorate securities markets to the point where a market actually exists (Doesn't have to go up, just has to be liquid).
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
I just don't get it. We had a bunch of greedy people decide to give loans to people that couldn't pay them, and now that these loans have been defaulted on, the people that wrote them don't have to be responsible for their actions?!?!? This is the craziest thing I've ever heard of. Not only that, but you want to put $700 billion dollars into the hands of ONE man, with NO Congressional oversight?!?!?

Who the hell comes up with this crap?!?!? :mad:
I wouldn't put $1.oo in the hands of that crook, it I could help it.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Way back in the day in Egypt which was stricken by famine, the Pharaoh sold grain to the Egyptian people. Eventually, they ran out of money, so he took their land in exchange for food. And when they ran out of land, he bought them. People should always be weary of government bailouts.
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
I would agree with you if these bank problems had anything to do with traditional recessionary forces... but they don't. They have a lot to do with bad investments, but they are 100% due to two major problems- A lack of liquidity and a failure in confidence. Like I said in my post the other day in the Enron thread, liquidity for financial institutions is like air and water for human beings, if they cannot access cash they are doomed, and due to the credit crunch there's just not enough money to go around.

Part of the problem is that the securities that these companies hold as assets need to be marked to market- for you non-finance types, this means that the value of the assets changes constantly based on the value in the marketplace, unlike say a piece of machinery which is valued at it's purchase price and then slowly depreciated over time. If you have a asset where the market has completely deteriorated (e.g. mortgage backed securities) it is very hard to determine the value of the asset. Should it be worth nothing? Maybe, since nobody wants to buy it right now. OTOH, if the security is backed by a solid asset (e.g. a pool of mortgages that are current and is constantly paying fee streams) then at some point in the future there is GUARANTEED value in the security because all of the money on the mortgages will be paid, so clearly the security is not worth nothing- it most likely will be worth full value.

The uncertainty in the values of these assets is causing banks to have to write-down their values, in-turn reducing the value of the total assets on their balance sheet, increasing their leverage ratio, reducing their credit-worthiness, and increasing their need for additional cash & collateral. And if you cannot sell your assets to raise capital because there's no market, or sell your stock to raise capital because short sellers are capitalizing on your poor liquidity and driving your share price down, and if you cannot borrow to raise money because you're not going to get any value against your assets... how does your company survive??

We've watched over the past 6 months as 5 major companies have been totally destroyed and at least 20 more have teetered.... not because they have bad business models (in fact, AIG has many outstanding businesses), but because confidence has plummeted and nobody wants to lend anybody else short-term money. Long term rates have shot through the roof. The best most financial institutions have been able to do is to borrow money overnight and to constantly roll it over day to day... eventually you're going to wake up one morning and there will be too much bad news and you realize that you cannot finance your business.

Letting this "play out" would be an even more unmitigated disaster than the bailout plan. The next stop would be the major commercial banks. Imagine what would happen if people thought Chase was going to go under? With Lehman/Bear it was only hedge funds and high wealth folks pulling their accounts... can you picture the run on the bank that Chase would experience??? Talk about armageddon!! The only way to solve this problem is to take all of the troubled assets off the books of banks, recreate a market for them, and then sit back and wait for the value to grow. If done right, the government will make TONS of money off of these distressed assets. They made money on Chrysler & they made money on S&Ls- once the housing market turns around... whether it's 2, 5, or 10 years, the mortgage securities that the government will buy will be worth much more than they pay for them- considering they're only paying cents on the dollar, it's an even better bargain.

I don't like the bailout, I think it sets a horrible precedence, but I think it's better than the alternative. I think some of the new regulations they are setting are a great idea, and one unintended positive consequence is that we will no longer have unregulated stand-alone investment banks. The most important thing is to make sure that liquidity actually gets injected back into the system, which will raise confidence, which in the end should reinvigorate securities markets to the point where a market actually exists (Doesn't have to go up, just has to be liquid).
Thank you aberkowitz! My thanks function doesn't work from this computer. A very smart response. There is good and bad to what is happening but SOMETHING needed to be done. This was going to hurt you and me now matter what and I still feel this is the best way to minimize the affect.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I would agree with you if these bank problems had anything to do with traditional recessionary forces... but they don't. They have a lot to do with bad investments, but they are 100% due to two major problems- A lack of liquidity and a failure in confidence. Like I said in my post the other day in the Enron thread, liquidity for financial institutions is like air and water for human beings, if they cannot access cash they are doomed, and due to the credit crunch there's just not enough money to go around.

Part of the problem is that the securities that these companies hold as assets need to be marked to market- for you non-finance types, this means that the value of the assets changes constantly based on the value in the marketplace, unlike say a piece of machinery which is valued at it's purchase price and then slowly depreciated over time. If you have a asset where the market has completely deteriorated (e.g. mortgage backed securities) it is very hard to determine the value of the asset. Should it be worth nothing? Maybe, since nobody wants to buy it right now. OTOH, if the security is backed by a solid asset (e.g. a pool of mortgages that are current and is constantly paying fee streams) then at some point in the future there is GUARANTEED value in the security because all of the money on the mortgages will be paid, so clearly the security is not worth nothing- it most likely will be worth full value.

The uncertainty in the values of these assets is causing banks to have to write-down their values, in-turn reducing the value of the total assets on their balance sheet, increasing their leverage ratio, reducing their credit-worthiness, and increasing their need for additional cash & collateral. And if you cannot sell your assets to raise capital because there's no market, or sell your stock to raise capital because short sellers are capitalizing on your poor liquidity and driving your share price down, and if you cannot borrow to raise money because you're not going to get any value against your assets... how does your company survive??

We've watched over the past 6 months as 5 major companies have been totally destroyed and at least 20 more have teetered.... not because they have bad business models (in fact, AIG has many outstanding businesses), but because confidence has plummeted and nobody wants to lend anybody else short-term money. Long term rates have shot through the roof. The best most financial institutions have been able to do is to borrow money overnight and to constantly roll it over day to day... eventually you're going to wake up one morning and there will be too much bad news and you realize that you cannot finance your business.

Letting this "play out" would be an even more unmitigated disaster than the bailout plan. The next stop would be the major commercial banks. Imagine what would happen if people thought Chase was going to go under? With Lehman/Bear it was only hedge funds and high wealth folks pulling their accounts... can you picture the run on the bank that Chase would experience??? Talk about armageddon!! The only way to solve this problem is to take all of the troubled assets off the books of banks, recreate a market for them, and then sit back and wait for the value to grow. If done right, the government will make TONS of money off of these distressed assets. They made money on Chrysler & they made money on S&Ls- once the housing market turns around... whether it's 2, 5, or 10 years, the mortgage securities that the government will buy will be worth much more than they pay for them- considering they're only paying cents on the dollar, it's an even better bargain.

I don't like the bailout, I think it sets a horrible precedence, but I think it's better than the alternative. I think some of the new regulations they are setting are a great idea, and one unintended positive consequence is that we will no longer have unregulated stand-alone investment banks. The most important thing is to make sure that liquidity actually gets injected back into the system, which will raise confidence, which in the end should reinvigorate securities markets to the point where a market actually exists (Doesn't have to go up, just has to be liquid).
But we don't have the money to do it. It's not a real option. Yes, the ecomony would have dark times if they didn't do the bailout, but by doing so they are just postponing DARKER times. It makes the problem worse. We are trying to set market prices and that is why we have this problem. The market needs to go down, and it is going to hurt, but we don't want to make it worse on ourselves.

It is simpler then people are making this out to be. There isn't saving home prices, they need to adjust back down to what they really are. Our money isn't supported by anything, it needs to adjust back down. I don't want this anymore than anyone else, but I do realize we can't jump out of this easier by climbing up more.

If the next president comes in and keeps this up, we will have the next great depression. Only it will be worse, because we don't have electrical lines to build like we did during the depression. We have a bunch of stupid psuedo-scientists trying to make a lick on the "green" movement. That isn't going to save us.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Right on, that's exactly what this is ... a 11th hour power grab. Those who read the 'real' news new some last minute Bush Administration power grab was coming, but the driving force was the only question.

It's not $700 Billion total, it's $700 Billion at any one time with NO LIMIT. This week they could snatch up $700 Billion of debt, give it to their elite buddies for pennies on the dollar, then buy $700 Billion more next week. And there's no regulation on types of debt, like your credit card debt for example ... then your own personal assets could seized as well.

I'm a pessimist as far as current affairs go, but rightfully so I think. I've always thought of myself as a Republican, but these people we have now are NOT Republicans. They're something new, call 'em what you want, but they scare the crap out of me.
There is no more Republicrat or Demican, they are called the "Political Elite". They are power hungry and simply want total control. Many of the sheeple out ther are unaware and buy into the dame old two way battle, while back room deals are being struck all the time.
 
D

D.R. Payne

Audioholic
But we don't have the money to do it. It's not a real option. Yes, the ecomony would have dark times if they didn't do the bailout, but by doing so they are just postponing DARKER times. It makes the problem worse. We are trying to set market prices and that is why we have this problem. The market needs to go down, and it is going to hurt, but we don't want to make it worse on ourselves.

It is simpler then people are making this out to be. There isn't saving home prices, they need to adjust back down to what they really are. Our money isn't supported by anything, it needs to adjust back down. I don't want this anymore than anyone else, but I do realize we can't jump out of this easier by climbing up more.

...
I think this will "save" home prices, yet also let them go down to what they really need to be. Nominal value remains constant while real value declines to appropriate levels.
What I mean is: I believe this bailout/action will have an inflationary effect on our currency. Your $300,000 house will still be worth $300,000, but $300,000 won't be worth what it was yesterday due to inflationary pressure on all other asset prices; too much $$ chasing too few goods/services and all that.

If we're going to do this, at the very least, do not give one man an infinite wheelbarrow of cash that no one can tell him not to use.
 
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