Want to improve your bass…Try this.

MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
gene said:
Actually its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of fact as experts such as Dr. Floyd Toole and Thomas Holman (formerly of THX) have proven in their research. If you are localizing the bass when the crossover is set above 60Hz its likely either 1) pressure wave detection, or 2) you have the subs set too high and their out of band energy above 80Hz is being localized.
Well, if you are using the LFE (and it’s set to the normal 80 Hz or below) then the sub crossover doesn’t matter.

If it is pressure wave detection, then it is still directional.


gene said:
If you don't think some receivers/processors truncate LFE if the crossover is set below 80Hz, then you probably haven't messed with many products featuring the dual/triple crossover system? Unfortunately many of those do. To date, the only multi crossover systems we tested that haven't are from Denon and Integra Research.
I would like to see some measurements of this. The 3805 doesn’t do this. My Yamaha doesn’t do this.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I would like to see some measurements of this. The 3805 doesn’t do this. My Yamaha doesn’t do this.
That's because Yamaha and Denon have some of the best bass management systems on the market. We have seen this issue on the processors built by East Tech and some of the more esoteric flavors.

The bottom line is always check your system bass response with an RTA/FFT measuring device if you have it at your disposal. Since I am a 2CH nut, my first priority is to get the splice right between the main speakers and subwoofer. IMO, if you can't get that right, all else goes out the window.

You have the basic tools to tweak out better system performance at your disposal such as:
adjusting crossover points and bass management settings, variable subwoofer phase, digital delay compensation, and most importantly speaker and listening position.

80Hz, with all speakers set small is a great starting point but I would almost always shy away from not using the dedicated sub outs of your processor in favor of speaker level or main preamp out for the reasons I stated in my previous posts.
 
Jaycan

Jaycan

Audioholic
You can do this, but now you lose the ability to have level control via the preamp and provide distance compensation. You now have to make sure you place the subs in close proximity to the mains or you risk time alignment issues at the very lowest frequencies which can negatively affect bass performance. In addition, some processors actually cut LFE response going to the main channels - even with NO sub present - to avoid risking overload of the processor.
This is true. The best location for the subs in this setup is the corner behind each tower. This all but eliminates TA issues. My yamaha receiver does not cut LFE to front when sub is set to NONE, so this doesn't affect me. And I find it actually easier to adjust front mounted level controls on a sub than fiddling through layers of receiver menus.
 
Johnny Canuck

Johnny Canuck

Banned
Jaycan:

Can you explain how you hooked up your sub this way. I have the Polk RTI 12's and I seem to recall my instruction manual recommending something like this. "The Polk Way" of wiring a sub.

Now I have a Hsu STF 3 so bass is not a problem. But you say you get more punch with music this way. I would like to hear it. I already have an amp running the lows of my towers so i am not sure if I can wire the sub with it too. Where do the wires go on the sub and what outputs/inputs of the amp/receiver do i use? Just use speaker wire or RCA's or both?

Thanks

JC
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
MacManNM said:
Well, if you are using the LFE (and it’s set to the normal 80 Hz or below) then the sub crossover doesn’t matter.

Would you not get a steeper roll off of frequencies above 80Hz?
 
M

MrQ

Audiophyte
mtrycrafts said:
Some things are just not up for debate, as you indicate.

where is MrQ, the acoustician, just when you need him :D
With his background, he would have been a great asset here. :D
Evening all. I have comment to pass if you're interested. :D

Bass directionality is not as closed-book as many suspect. Basic physics, including Huygens' principle, shows quite clearly that bass frequencies emitted from a dipole source will be less directional than high frequencies. The localisation mechanisms (principally interaural phase difference IPD, interaural time difference ITD and outer ear diffraction effects) are far better geared up to providing better directional discernibility at high freqs. So yes, you can without question tell the direction of HF more easily and with greater acuity than LF. That's very different to the question of whether the room is excited differently according to the direction of the sub. More on that below.

Most would agree that the optimum position for a sub in a small room is the point at which there is minimal undesirable excitation of the room (i.e. nasty modes) and maximum desirable excitation (the modal balance found by-ear or that expressed on the room curve of choice). The most significant aspect of room mode excitation is the oscillation of walls but almost-equally significant, and ignored 99% of the time, are the excitations of the flanking paths of the room (i.e. joists, framing, superstructure, window frames, etc). The fundamental frequency of the parallel pairs of walls in a simple room are dead easy to find with an accelerometer. Oscillating flanking paths on the other hand are far more complex mechanical systems so finding out what they're doing is much harder. It can be done - I use a combination of Insul (insulation performance prediction), Odeon (room modelling/auralisation) and my own funny brand of longhand maths to figure it out, but it's not for the layman.

What you can say is that the notion many enthusiasts have about positioning a sub according to a model of wall/ceiling/floor modes really isn't any good and is why you can very often greatly improve a "professionally-tuned" room using lots of trial and error. In fact, sometimes you can just do it instantly, which annoys the person who did it originally! :p It *is* subjective, there is no perfect listening room and I would say therefore that the only way to tune a small listening room is to use lots of trial and error. It's a less vague science with large room design, funnily enough. :)

Sub directionality: very simple actually. If you excite the room structure (so effectively the flanking paths) strongly at a weak point, the room will be excited awkwardly. If it is excited at a stiff junction, i.e. a corner, the room vibration will be more uniform. Think of a rubber climbing frame (go on, you can do it. I know it's bizarre but try) - if you grab one of the bars in the middle and shake the whole thing, it will wobble like jelly. But if you grab a corner and shake it, it will seem more solid. Erm, does that little visualisation actually help? Hope so. Now looking at the polar pattern of a sub, there doesn't seem to be much difference as you move around the cab, but there is always some because the cab is not a point source. Therefore, pointing it in any one direction means that there will be an increased or reduced excitation at the adjacent section of wall/ceiling/floor, so you're treading the fine line between flanking path and wall excitation. So YES, it does matter which direction your sub is facing in and NO, there is no easy way to figure it out. I like that last part because it keeps me in work. :D

Bottom line, the most sensible way of tuning a small room, assuming that you aren't constrained by time, is to try lots and lots of different positions, rotating the sub (and putting it on its side or upside down..... honestly) until you find a sound that you really like. Jaycan is probably pretty close in saying that the corners of the room are the best places for subs in the context of either stereo or one of the home cinema flavours, although I would always try a bunch of strange positions because you might end up exciting a set of joists that emphasise the room character. Experimentation all the way!

Remember the stale ears rule though - 15 mins of tuning, 30 mins of something else.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
mtrycrafts said:
Would you not get a steeper roll off of frequencies above 80Hz?

Using the sub crossover? no. The receiver is going to cut off much faster, most of them are 24db/oct crossovers.
 
MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
MrQ said:
Evening all. I have comment to pass if you're interested. :D

Bass directionality is not as closed-book as many suspect. Basic physics, including Huygens' principle, shows quite clearly that bass frequencies emitted from a dipole source will be less directional than high frequencies. The localisation mechanisms (principally interaural phase difference IPD, interaural time difference ITD and outer ear diffraction effects) are far better geared up to providing better directional discernibility at high freqs. So yes, you can without question tell the direction of HF more easily and with greater acuity than LF. That's very different to the question of whether the room is excited differently according to the direction of the sub. More on that below.

Most would agree that the optimum position for a sub in a small room is the point at which there is minimal undesirable excitation of the room (i.e. nasty modes) and maximum desirable excitation (the modal balance found by-ear or that expressed on the room curve of choice). The most significant aspect of room mode excitation is the oscillation of walls but almost-equally significant, and ignored 99% of the time, are the excitations of the flanking paths of the room (i.e. joists, framing, superstructure, window frames, etc). The fundamental frequency of the parallel pairs of walls in a simple room are dead easy to find with an accelerometer. Oscillating flanking paths on the other hand are far more complex mechanical systems so finding out what they're doing is much harder. It can be done - I use a combination of Insul (insulation performance prediction), Odeon (room modelling/auralisation) and my own funny brand of longhand maths to figure it out, but it's not for the layman.

What you can say is that the notion many enthusiasts have about positioning a sub according to a model of wall/ceiling/floor modes really isn't any good and is why you can very often greatly improve a "professionally-tuned" room using lots of trial and error. In fact, sometimes you can just do it instantly, which annoys the person who did it originally! :p It *is* subjective, there is no perfect listening room and I would say therefore that the only way to tune a small listening room is to use lots of trial and error. It's a less vague science with large room design, funnily enough. :)

Sub directionality: very simple actually. If you excite the room structure (so effectively the flanking paths) strongly at a weak point, the room will be excited awkwardly. If it is excited at a stiff junction, i.e. a corner, the room vibration will be more uniform. Think of a rubber climbing frame (go on, you can do it. I know it's bizarre but try) - if you grab one of the bars in the middle and shake the whole thing, it will wobble like jelly. But if you grab a corner and shake it, it will seem more solid. Erm, does that little visualisation actually help? Hope so. Now looking at the polar pattern of a sub, there doesn't seem to be much difference as you move around the cab, but there is always some because the cab is not a point source. Therefore, pointing it in any one direction means that there will be an increased or reduced excitation at the adjacent section of wall/ceiling/floor, so you're treading the fine line between flanking path and wall excitation. So YES, it does matter which direction your sub is facing in and NO, there is no easy way to figure it out. I like that last part because it keeps me in work. :D

Bottom line, the most sensible way of tuning a small room, assuming that you aren't constrained by time, is to try lots and lots of different positions, rotating the sub (and putting it on its side or upside down..... honestly) until you find a sound that you really like. Jaycan is probably pretty close in saying that the corners of the room are the best places for subs in the context of either stereo or one of the home cinema flavours, although I would always try a bunch of strange positions because you might end up exciting a set of joists that emphasise the room character. Experimentation all the way!

Remember the stale ears rule though - 15 mins of tuning, 30 mins of something else.
Good post. Nice insight.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Optimal sub placement

Jaycan said:
This is true. The best location for the subs in this setup is the corner behind each tower. This all but eliminates TA issues. My yamaha receiver does not cut LFE to front when sub is set to NONE, so this doesn't affect me. And I find it actually easier to adjust front mounted level controls on a sub than fiddling through layers of receiver menus.
Here's a nice explanation of where to put a sub, and why from a noteworthy source. Read thread 16.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=573840
 
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