Velodyne Digital Drive Plus 18 (DD18+) Subwoofer Review

Ricci

Ricci

Bassaholic
I am confused by your high rating of this subwoofer.
Please look at the distortion chart.

This sub is pure distortion - anything below 40Hz, distortion goes through the roof. It has distortion characteristics of a cheapo sub. I would not put a sub with these kind of distortion levels into my system even if it cost only $499.

Completely unacceptable for a sub costing this much.
Please reconsider your ratings of this sub, because it truly make no sense and you compromising your reputation.
Then simply put, you will need to not have a subwoofer at all because this is actually a very good performance for a sealed subwoofer producing these types of output levels.

There are sub that cost significantly less, that have tons of output below 20Hz without this ridiculous amount of distortion.

I have Epik Conquest, (18" portesd sub) which has solid output down to 12Hz with distortion of less than 4%.
Where are the comparable test data? If the Conquest were to be tested per our methodology you would probably be highly disappointed (Whether it did very well or not) because it will not maintain the distortion levels that you personally would expect after looking at the results from a completely incomparable test. (I suspect it would do quite well BTW.)

It was difficult to compare the SVS charts with the Velodyne's because most of the tests were not identical. For example, some of the Velodyne charts are for 115db of output, while the SVS charts are for 105db. Also, I'm trying to figure out how these measurements correlate to those in this test:

Velodyne DD-18+ Subwoofer
The Home Theater Hifi test is in no way comparable to an outdoor groundplane test such as those done here as it is in room and we have no way of knowing what effect the room acoustics have on the response.

The tests for the PB13 Ultra and every other sub I have tested are as comparable as you can get but you have to understand what is being looked at. Each subwoofer is calibrated to a base level of 90dB at 50Hz at 2 meters outdoors groundplane. The response shapes and extension of each subwoofer differ so that you must look at the actual measured response to compare the THD levels at any frequency from any sweep because the output levels will likely not be the same due to this. A 115dB nominal sweep level does not indicate that it was 115dB anywhere in the measurement. It means that the level was increased 25dB over the baseline 90dB at 50Hz sweep and barring any compression that it should be the same shape just increased 25dB. To have that actually happen with no compression would be highly unusual.

Yeah, I read that awhile back. It still doesn't explain why the charts don't correlate in between the SVS and the Velodyne.

I'm a DD18+ owner, and if I had the capability to measure it the way you do, and I did, I would not be giving it awards. On the other hand, I subjectively agree with your reviewer. I'm thrilled with it. Nonetheless, it does make me wonder what I have in my listening room.
They do correlate as noted above. The DD18+ is a very good performer. Even the distortion performance is good. It seems that the expectations have been raised to an unrealistic level from looking at marketing and THD results gathered under completely different circumstances.

Every subwoofer when driven to it's limits is going to produce generous THD levels below 25Hz. I've yet to see one that defies this trend. Sealed subs always have a sloping increase towards deep bass frequencies as the driver excursion increases. Bass reflex subs and tuned subwoofers generally exhibit low distortion, a slight peak at the driver excursion maximum above tune, a low point at the tuning, followed by a skyrocket below tuning. Distortion increases with higher output as well.

You also need to consider the output levels involved with the distortion measurements. One sub may appear to be cleaner but if it is producing 10dB less output you can be assured that the other will be much cleaner if it's level is reduced 10dB.

Bottom line.

Please do not try to compare our distortion measurements with those from others. They are usually very different. Our tests are outdoors at distance and are very strenuous and cannot be compared with results taken otherwise at all. Look at the results compared to other subwoofers that I have tested.
 
Last edited:
J

jjackkrash

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for the review. I appreciate your hard work.

I for one would like to see a test of the Submersive HP and a comparable Funk Audio offering, like the FW18.0. I'd bet they compare favorably with the Velodyne at a lower price point without some of the bells and whistles, but until we see an apples to apples comparison, its a lot like crowning an NCAA football "champion" by using computer models and opinion polls.

Any chance of a Submersive HP or FW18.0 review?

Jack
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The tests for the PB13 Ultra and every other sub I have tested are as comparable as you can get but you have to understand what is being looked at. Each subwoofer is calibrated to a base level of 90dB at 50Hz at 2 meters outdoors groundplane. The response shapes and extension of each subwoofer differ so that you must look at the actual measured response to compare the THD levels at any frequency from any sweep because the output levels will likely not be the same due to this. A 115dB nominal sweep level does not indicate that it was 115dB anywhere in the measurement. It means that the level was increased 25dB over the baseline 90dB at 50Hz sweep and barring any compression that it should be the same shape just increased 25dB. To have that actually happen with no compression would be highly unusual.

They do correlate as noted above.
First of all, thank you for taking the time for writing such a detailed explanation.

I admit however, to not fully understanding your response. I apologize if this is a stupid question, but were the DD18+ sweeps run with 10db more output than the PB13-U's? I feel like I'm missing some important underlying concept here, but you are saying they're comparable and I'm seeing (misunderstanding) 115db versus 105db on a distortion sweep. I feel like I keep calling an object blue and I'm being told "No you fool! It's Red!"
 
Ricci

Ricci

Bassaholic
First of all, thank you for taking the time for writing such a detailed explanation.

I admit however, to not fully understanding your response. I apologize if this is a stupid question, but were the DD18+ sweeps run with 10db more output than the PB13-U's? I feel like I'm missing some important underlying concept here, but you are saying they're comparable and I'm seeing (misunderstanding) 115db versus 105db on a distortion sweep. I feel like I keep calling an object blue and I'm being told "No you fool! It's Red!"
Give me a little bit and I will put together a couple of charts to illustrate what I am trying to say. Maybe that will help clear it up. (Hopefully. :eek:)
 
Ricci

Ricci

Bassaholic
Alright...Let's see if this helps.

Below are some basic ideas or variables to keep in mind when looking at distortion levels during the output compression sweeps and attempting to compare different units to each other.

90db basic response comparison.jpg


Above is the basic response of 3 quite different subwoofers measured with the same equipment in the same manner. The vertical direction indicates increasing SPL level or loudness. The horizontal direction indicates what frequency in the bandwidth. The left side of the graph is deeper frequencies and the top of the chart is higher SPL level. (Just in case anyone reading is not sure what they are looking at on these charts.:))

Notice how different the response shapes are. Also remember that we calibrate the subwoofers to a baseline of 50Hz at 2 meters outdoor groundplane. As can be seen that is where the lines all converge is near 50Hz but as we get further away from that point the responses deviate greatly which results in one subwoofer producing much more output in the deep base and another producing much more in the upper bass range. Looking at these 3 subwoofers it is apparent that the green one is being driven the least hard of all at the baseline sweep level since it peaks near 50Hz. The black one is being driven the hardest overall and much much harder than the other two in the deepest bass. As can be seen at some frequencies the subs can be outputting significantly more than 90dB and at others much much less during a 90dB nominal sweep.

Note that 50Hz is chosen as the reference point to level match them because it is an area that almost every subwoofer is strong at and it is smack in the middle of the typical subwoofer range of operation.

Below we will see what happens to the responses when the output is increased 20dB to a nominally 110dB level.

110db basic response comparison.jpg

Above are the results for the same subs driven 20dB harder. Note that the responses have changed quite a bit due to compression and limiting and there is still a lot of deviation. There is also starting to be a lot of drift away from each other at 50Hz where originally they were very close. This type of thing is why one subwoofer may be compressing already on a 105dB sweep while another may not until driven much harder and in some cases different sweep levels as indicated might actually be a better comparison of overall output levels than the same nominal sweep level.

This is also why I usually say at a "nominally" 110dB sweep. This means that it should be producing 110dB at 50Hz not that it will be a flat line over most of the range because many times that is not the case.


110db thd comparison.PNG

Above is the THD or total harmonic distortion from the Green and Red subwoofers during the nominally 110dB sweep. Note that the Red distortion levels are higher in the upper bass but if you look at the 110dB sweep results from the middle picture you should note that the Red subwoofer is actually producing 10-12dB higher output over much of that range. That is the output of 4 units of the Green sub! The Red subwoofer also produces much higher output in the deep bass even though the distortion levels seem close. This type of thing is why you have to look at more than just the THD% for a useful comparison. One subwoofer may be producing the output of 2 or 3 of the other subwoofer over a range in which case a direct distortion comparison is meaningless.

This is just in order to compare our own results against each other. I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it will be to compare results from completely different types of tests to each other in a fair manner.










Regarding the questions of not being able to compare the PB13-Ultra THD to the Velodyne DD18+. The above can show how this is more complicated than it seems. Also The DD18+ I used the 115dB sweeps for it's THD chart where I only showed the 105Db ones for the PB13-Ultra. The reason that I decided on that level for the PB13-Ultra is because it is really 3 separate system tests with the 3 different operational modes and as such the review would have been ridiculously jammed with measurements so we had to condense things down. 105dB was chosen because that was the highest output level before significant compression from the sealed mode and where the output levels match ed the best. I also assumed that most users would want to compare THD when the sub is not being asked to give everything it's got. I wanted to compare the distortion in that manner so that is why 105dB was chosen. You can see the THD data for the higher and lower output levels at Data-Bass where all of the measurements are hosted. Normally I would show THD at a couple of different sweep levels but the PB-13 review was so large already that we had to condense things a little.
 
Last edited:
D

detroit1

Audioholic Intern
bottom line is the DD18+ may be a nice sub but way overpriced
someone can buy 2 Epik Empire for $1600, or 2 HSU model with 15inch for under 2K or VMPS larger sub with megawoofers for 1K
you can buy multiple of these subs for way less than 1 DD18+
and multiple good subs give better performance in more seats and more potential for higher SPL
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
bottom line is the DD18+ may be a nice sub but way overpriced
someone can buy 2 Epik Empire for $1600, or 2 HSU model with 15inch for under 2K or VMPS larger sub with megawoofers for 1K
you can buy multiple of these subs for way less than 1 DD18+
and multiple good subs give better performance in more seats and more potential for higher SPL
It always come down to buying 2 Epiks or Hsu...doesn't it!:rolleyes:
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
People often kvetch about output, especially compared to the SVS Ultra 13, but the DD18+ does about one would expect for a well-engineered driver with big amp power in a pretty big box.

It seems to me the only real negatives of the DD18+ are the following:

(1) the on-board measurement display is IMO unacceptably off. That was unexpected to me, considering that my old Velo SMS-1 very closely tracks measurements done by more sophisticated measurement software (with the mic stationary and the other end of the XLR cable taken out of the SMS-1 or MIC-5 and put into a mic preamp).

(2) the new driver pretty clearly has higher inductance than the old DD18 driver. Perhaps the change from a dual-split-coil arrangement of the old DD series to an underhung one with a very thick vc is the culprit?

As for the price, either one can afford something or one can't. Those who can will make whatever relative value judgments are relevant to their particular situation.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Great review Josh. Admittedly I never thought I'd see you recco a $5k non DIY sub as product of the year! :p :D

Now, someone riddle me this ....

Test Report: Velodyne DD-15 Plus Subwoofer | Sound and Vision Magazine

:rolleyes:
Brent's CEA test results are all over the map as can be seen with his DD15+ measurements that not only exceeded mine of the same sub, but even josh's measurements of the DD18+!

The same issue was noted via his measurements of the SVS pb12nsd.
 
Last edited:
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Regarding the questions of not being able to compare the PB13-Ultra THD to the Velodyne DD18+. The above can show how this is more complicated than it seems. Also The DD18+ I used the 115dB sweeps for it's THD chart where I only showed the 105Db ones for the PB13-Ultra. The reason that I decided on that level for the PB13-Ultra is because it is really 3 separate system tests with the 3 different operational modes and as such the review would have been ridiculously jammed with measurements so we had to condense things down. 105dB was chosen because that was the highest output level before significant compression from the sealed mode and where the output levels match ed the best. I also assumed that most users would want to compare THD when the sub is not being asked to give everything it's got. I wanted to compare the distortion in that manner so that is why 105dB was chosen. You can see the THD data for the higher and lower output levels at Data-Bass where all of the measurements are hosted. Normally I would show THD at a couple of different sweep levels but the PB-13 review was so large already that we had to condense things a little.
Ricci,

Thank you for the extended explanation, and now I understand the difference between the graphs in question.

Sitting here listening to the DD18+ all I can say is that I can't imagine how I could be happier with how the product performs in my room. Perhaps I should stop wondering about what I'm objectively hearing and just enjoy it. The Yellow Jackets Blue Hats album has some really cool bass lines on it, incidentally.
 
Last edited:
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Ricci,

Thank you for the extended explanation, and now I understand the difference between the graphs in question.

Sitting here listening to the DD18+ all I can say is that I can't imagine how I could be happier with how the product performs in my room. Perhaps I should stop wondering about what I'm objectively hearing and just enjoy it. The Yellow Jackets Blue Hats album has some really cool bass lines on it, incidentally.
Yellowjackets rock! They kinda went the smooth bubble gum jazzaic for awhile but they are back to making real music again.
 
Ricci

Ricci

Bassaholic
Ricci,

Thank you for the extended explanation, and now I understand the difference between the graphs in question.

Sitting here listening to the DD18+ all I can say is that I can't imagine how I could be happier with how the product performs in my room. Perhaps I should stop wondering about what I'm objectively hearing and just enjoy it. The Yellow Jackets Blue Hats album has some really cool bass lines on it, incidentally.
No problem. Regardless of price, I can't imagine many who would be disappointed with the way it performs.
 
D

Dionyz

Banned
Gene i thjnk he was sayi g that the svs distortion sweeps were done at 105db and the velodyne distortion sweeps done at 115db?

and the actual ground plane measurements are where?

Search for C2.pdf on Epik Subwoofer site - you will find the measurements there.

You can see for yourself - reproduces frequencies below 20Hz without going to infinite distortion like the Velodyne.

Velodyne is completely unsuitable for Home Theater use with its inifinite distortion levels. It doe look like it is a very good sub for music however.

If the reviewers gave Velodyne a high rating for music only and stated that it is not realy suitable for Home Theater use due to going to infinite distortion below 20 Hz, then we would be in 100% agreement.

I just find it sad that the reviewers would try to hide and not point out the obvious shortcomings to potential consumers, just because they got paid to review this sub.

This is the quickest way to loose one's credibility
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
That is nonsense. The DD18+ performs way above what most home theater subwoofers do and excels at home theater use. It isn't going below 20 hz without distortion, but very few subs do, and also there isn't even much 20 hz or below content out there. If you want to have a huge sub to serve the sporadic content of a handful of movies, most of which are awful, be my guest, but don't kid yourself, the DD18+ is a much more sophisticated sub than the old brutes that Epik used to make.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I'm just curious how close the dual 12" Kappa build will come performance wise above 20Hz for 1/14th the price.
 
D

Dionyz

Banned
That is nonsense. The DD18+ performs way above what most home theater subwoofers do and excels at home theater use. It isn't going below 20 hz without distortion, but very few subs do, and also there isn't even much 20 hz or below content out there. If you want to have a huge sub to serve the sporadic content of a handful of movies, most of which are awful, be my guest, but don't kid yourself, the DD18+ is a much more sophisticated sub than the old brutes that Epik used to make.
There is actually quite a bit of content below 20Hz and the amount of content is increasing every day as that is where the impact that theater and HT enthusiast are looking for.

Even for music lovers there is content below 20Hz - some of the classical music with organs has tones below 20Hz, as well as some techno & hip/hop music.
The issue is, that if you have never heard/felt undistorted content below 20Hz you do not know what you are missing.
I myself had no appreciation for this undistorted low frequency sound until I got the Conquest (I had a dual 12" sub previously and have heard Velodyne 15" DD)

Again, I do believe that "sophisticated" Velodyne is very good for Music above 20Hz.
However, don't kid yourself about the lack of content below 20Hz, as it is quite significant, and it is "exactly" this content that give you that realistic sensation of being there (as reproduced by old brutes)

And if you do not have a way to keep old brutes out of site in your home theater, then you do not have a home theater but in reality have a media room.
 
F

farrow099

Audioholic Intern
Product of the year @ $5k?! That just screams elitist 1 percent-er!
Overpriced product of the year! :eek:

Joking aside, something less obnoxious like product of the year classes might offer better solutions for the majority of your readers. Id est, product(s) of the year under $1000, under $2500, and then the money is no option class. Many of the tech sites do this now.

In all honesty, for that amount of cash you could purchase dual TC Sounds LMS Ultra 18"s, dual crown xls 2500 amps, have boxes CNC cut at a local shop, and still have money left over to buy a new receiver with in room sub correction! If DIY isn't your thing the SVS Ultra and Rythmik subs are both badass subwoofers for wayyy less money.

We all love to see the top of the line gear but we also like to know what the best "bang for our buck" product is this year. :cool:
 
H

Hocky

Full Audioholic
So much crying about money. Why can't anyone just let products (whether it is speakers, cars, watches, whatever) stand for themselves and forget the price tag? Maybe not everyone can afford them, but who cares? Let them be what they are whether they're affordable or not. Why would I buy a rolex when a timex from walmart works better?
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top