Using DVD Player as CD Player

[mtrycrafts]

Of course there's better sounding equipment out there,my dog hears it sometimes.

Sounds like I need to get a dog and take it with me shopping next time

 

[BostonMark]

what...

were all you guys saying? I was in the other room listening to my new Meridian 506.24 CD player. I love its DACS and use the analog outs to my receiver, which I have set on processor direct, so it sends the Meridian's signal cleanly to my Rotel 200 watt/ch stereo power amplifier, and then to my Polk Audio Monitor 70s. Wow, you really can hear the difference in a truly high end CD player.

 

[WmAx]

Wow, you really can hear the difference in a truly high end CD player.

If you can *really hear a difference, then it will probably be because the CD player is purposely modifying the frequency response or inducing huge levels of distortion(s). This is not unheard of in so-called hi-end equipment.

-Chris

*To ascertain actual audibility, a controlled double blinded test with level matching within 0.1 dB is required in order to prevent psychological and physiological biases from affecting the evaluation.

 

[westcott]

were all you guys saying? I was in the other room listening to my new Meridian 506.24 CD player. I love its DACS and use the analog outs to my receiver, which I have set on processor direct, so it sends the Meridian's signal cleanly to my Rotel 200 watt/ch stereo power amplifier, and then to my Polk Audio Monitor 70s. Wow, you really can hear the difference in a truly high end CD player.

Everyone has their priorities but I would never spend more on a CD transport than my entire speaker system is worth?

 

[shokhead]

were all you guys saying? I was in the other room listening to my new Meridian 506.24 CD player. I love its DACS and use the analog outs to my receiver, which I have set on processor direct, so it sends the Meridian's signal cleanly to my Rotel 200 watt/ch stereo power amplifier, and then to my Polk Audio Monitor 70s. Wow, you really can hear the difference in a truly high end CD player.

Well ok then,we are glad your happy abit a little lighter in the wallet. I close my eyes and play my cd's on my DVD player and dream its a cd player. I'm happy also.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Wow, you really can hear the difference in a truly high end CD player.

Not the first such claim It usually falls apart when you have to use only your ears to compare; that is trusting your ears, not when you use your eyes to confuse the issues.

The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

I wonder if one of those $1000+ CD player was a Meridian and no audible difference.
Or
this one with a Meridian:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_mldenon.htm

If it is in Spanish, use the google translator.

 

[BostonMark]

Actually...

Everyone has their priorities but I would never spend more on a CD transport than my entire speaker system is worth?

The Meridian is out on loan to me from a local hi fi store, but if I do decide to buy it, its used, and its $649.00, not $2,200.00. Frankly if it was new, its out of my budget for hi fi stuff at the moment.

However to take a moment comparing high end things to low end, why wouldn't a better CD player sound better? At some point the Digital Analog converter must convert the signal from the CD to the speakers. Either the CD player does that or the receiver. Plenty has been written on this forum why better electronics in receivers and amplifiers make one receiver sound better or worse than another, so why would it be different for the electronics in a CD player? Why wouldn't better electronics in the CD player make the overall sound better, when its been argued many times over that the electronics in almost every other part of your system does, ie DVD players (black levels, PLUGE, artifacting, etc, yet we all know all the DVD player is, is a machine that plays the DIGITAL information on a Disc); receivers, amplifiers, you get the idea.

While I agree that if I paid the full list price of the Meridian, I don't hear three times better sound than my DVD player (a pioneer elite 47A), it does have an incredible sound. While I didn't notice any difference between blind AB tests with a Rotel RCD 975 I do hear a difference with the Meridian. To perform the test, I used two albums that I had two CDs of , Donald Fagans Morph the Cat (got the CD, then found out it was available in CD/DVD-audio) and Diana Krall - The Girl in the Other Room (same deal, first bought CD). I placed them both into the DVD player and the Meridian at the same time and hit play. With the settings for each the same (yamaha set to processor direct, no effects) I had my girlfriend select one, then the other etc. with me not knowing whether she hit the CD button or the DVD button. With the Rotel tests (a $750.00 CD player) I couldn't tell the difference between the DACs in the Rotel and my Reciever (the DVD player in both tests was set to digital out, while the Rotel and the Meridian were played using analog out, since their selling points are high quality dacs). However, I could hear a difference between the Meridian and my receiver. Was it a $2200 dollar difference? Probably not, but I'm pretty sure that I will end up buying it, I'm amazed with it.

I would also note that the Meridian 506 is one solid machine. It weighs a lot, and the transport actually contains the laser, so that its always in the same spot. It also has a feature I like, even though its a minor one. The transport features a rubber center, so that when you put the CD in the machine it is always exactly where it should go. Not often, but every once in a while, I drop a dvd in my dvd player, and the door won't shut, because I didn't place it in the tray quite right.

As a final note of irony, I never would have even thought of buying stuff like Rotel Power Amps and Meridian CD players if I hadn't started reading this Darn AudioHolics Forum last Year!!!! (which includes rave reviews on not only the rotel amps and the meridian, but also the Rotel CD player that I couldn't really hear a difference on). Sooo, if any of you have actually done the said AB tests on any of these high end units, why don't you write a review of said machine in the consumer review section!!???

 

[shokhead]

DVD or CD player through the digital connection isnt doing much of anything with the signal, its the receiver thats doing everything. Player hands it to the receiver and THEN its converted,mixed,changed and whatever else the receiver is going to do.

 

[BostonMark]

transaltor link is cool

Not the first such claim It usually falls apart when you have to use only your ears to compare; that is trusting your ears, not when you use your eyes to confuse the issues.

The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

I wonder if one of those $1000+ CD player was a Meridian and no audible difference.
Or
this one with a Meridian:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_mldenon.htm

If it is in Spanish, use the google translator.

First, what a cool link that translator is, I did read the article. I can't afford equipment to equalize the output between my own AB test, I suspect that would cost more than my whole system. What exactly does the ABX killer 1 equalization comparison system do anyway? (the piece of electronics they used in the comparison tests to do the AB switching)

If this article is true, my question is, "why are we all here?" If a simple system costing thousands and thousands less than the high end system sounds the same, why have we all wasted so much time and effort with so many posts on this site? Why don't we all just buy a basic Denon Receiver (no offense to denon, I have one, and like it) plug in our discman, and listen and be happy? It would appear from this article that the only thing to argue about as far as sound Quality goes (as opposed to features which vary from unit to unit) is speakers.

 

[shokhead]

Bells and whistles,inputs and outputs,most use the DVD player for cd's also and so there the differences are greater, video quality,difference audio formats and durability.

 

[Geno]

Getting back to the subject of this thread...

After reading through the many pages of this thread, I'm impressed with the breadth of experience in this group of Audioholics. My own more humble experiences with different CD/DVD players hasn't revealed any startling differences in sound quality, except for the Hi-Rez formats. I'm amazed that anyone would spend 15 - 20 thousand on a CD player, but it's their money. Since my "critical" listening is done on my Denon universal player, I still wanted a dedicated CD player for background listening, so got my present CD megachanger. The major difference, to me, is the features that a CD player has over a DVD or universal player. CD players are the only type of disc player that will do true "shuffle" play. Also, my changer has a "favorites" feature that let me program playlists of discs as well as favorite tracks. That is the one feature that made me want a CD changer.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

 

[mtrycrafts]

The major difference, to me, is the features that a CD player has over a DVD or universal player. CD players are the only type of disc player that will do true "shuffle" play. Also, my changer has a "favorites" feature that let me program playlists of discs as well as favorite tracks. That is the one feature that made me want a CD changer.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

These are very important reasons to get a mega changer. And, since there is nothing wrong with them, it is a great choice, plus, the storage of Cds has just dropped significantly

 

[shokhead]

These are very important reasons to get a mega changer. And, since there is nothing wrong with them, it is a great choice, plus, the storage of Cds has just dropped significantly

I'd have a problem with a mega player because i use them in my car and change them once a week and pulling out of the storage might be more trouble then it would be worth?

 

[westcott]

The Meridian is out on loan to me from a local hi fi store, but if I do decide to buy it, its used, and its $649.00, not $2,200.00. Frankly if it was new, its out of my budget for hi fi stuff at the moment.

However to take a moment comparing high end things to low end, why wouldn't a better CD player sound better? At some point the Digital Analog converter must convert the signal from the CD to the speakers. Either the CD player does that or the receiver. Plenty has been written on this forum why better electronics in receivers and amplifiers make one receiver sound better or worse than another, so why would it be different for the electronics in a CD player? Why wouldn't better electronics in the CD player make the overall sound better, when its been argued many times over that the electronics in almost every other part of your system does, ie DVD players (black levels, PLUGE, artifacting, etc, yet we all know all the DVD player is, is a machine that plays the DIGITAL information on a Disc); receivers, amplifiers, you get the idea.

While I agree that if I paid the full list price of the Meridian, I don't hear three times better sound than my DVD player (a pioneer elite 47A), it does have an incredible sound. While I didn't notice any difference between blind AB tests with a Rotel RCD 975 I do hear a difference with the Meridian. To perform the test, I used two albums that I had two CDs of , Donald Fagans Morph the Cat (got the CD, then found out it was available in CD/DVD-audio) and Diana Krall - The Girl in the Other Room (same deal, first bought CD). I placed them both into the DVD player and the Meridian at the same time and hit play. With the settings for each the same (yamaha set to processor direct, no effects) I had my girlfriend select one, then the other etc. with me not knowing whether she hit the CD button or the DVD button. With the Rotel tests (a $750.00 CD player) I couldn't tell the difference between the DACs in the Rotel and my Reciever (the DVD player in both tests was set to digital out, while the Rotel and the Meridian were played using analog out, since their selling points are high quality dacs). However, I could hear a difference between the Meridian and my receiver. Was it a $2200 dollar difference? Probably not, but I'm pretty sure that I will end up buying it, I'm amazed with it.

I would also note that the Meridian 506 is one solid machine. It weighs a lot, and the transport actually contains the laser, so that its always in the same spot. It also has a feature I like, even though its a minor one. The transport features a rubber center, so that when you put the CD in the machine it is always exactly where it should go. Not often, but every once in a while, I drop a dvd in my dvd player, and the door won't shut, because I didn't place it in the tray quite right.

As a final note of irony, I never would have even thought of buying stuff like Rotel Power Amps and Meridian CD players if I hadn't started reading this Darn AudioHolics Forum last Year!!!! (which includes rave reviews on not only the rotel amps and the meridian, but also the Rotel CD player that I couldn't really hear a difference on). Sooo, if any of you have actually done the said AB tests on any of these high end units, why don't you write a review of said machine in the consumer review section!!???

Digital signal transmission is pretty much controlled by standards set for digtial signal transmission. It either follows the protocols or not. I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that your PC CD player is just as capable of reading and writing a PERFECT copy of any audio disc it is requested to copy or read. It is a simple digital transfer. PCs have transfered billions of bytes, every day, for decades, without errors using $10 CD players and since the majority of us use digital equipment for surround sound, the cd player is simply a transport of digital data. There is no better or worse digital transfer and since most of us are using digital receivers to translate our music to Dolby Pro Logic or Dolby Digital, it is not necessary to invest in quality DACs in a transport, our receiver is doing all the digital processing of the digital signal sent by the transport. A quality DAC in a CD player is not necessary if you are using your CD or DVD player for digital processing by the receiver.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, analog is a whole different story and is very subjective. If it sounds better to you in analog, then that is a personal preference shared by a lot of people, but in the scheme of things, a VERY small percentage of the population. Since this article is under Home Theater, it was assumed by many that we were talking about multi channel digital sound and not analog, two channel music listening.

 

[BostonMark]

Speakers are ANALOG

Digital signal transmission is pretty much controlled by standards set for digtial signal transmission. It either follows the protocols or not. I do not understand why it is so difficult to understand that your PC CD player is just as capable of reading and writing a PERFECT copy of any audio disc it is requested to copy or read. It is a simple digital transfer. PCs have transfered billions of bytes, every day, for decades, without errors using $10 CD players and since the majority of us use digital equipment for surround sound, the cd player is simply a transport of digital data. There is no better or worse digital transfer and since most of us are using digital receivers to translate our music to Dolby Pro Logic or Dolby Digital, it is not necessary to invest in quality DACs in a transport, our receiver is doing all the digital processing of the digital signal sent by the transport. A quality DAC in a CD player is not necessary if you are using your CD or DVD player for digital processing by the receiver.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, analog is a whole different story and is very subjective. If it sounds better to you in analog, then that is a personal preference shared by a lot of people, but in the scheme of things, a VERY small percentage of the population. Since this article is under Home Theater, it was assumed by many that we were talking about multi channel digital sound and not analog, two channel music listening.

Of course a computer reads and writes CDs with perfection, its Digital to Digital. Ones and zeroes. However, when you send that digital signal to a speaker so that you can LISTEN to it, the digital information MUST BE CONVERTED BACK INTO ANALOG. Why do you think your speakers are hooked to your stereo with wires, instead of fiber optic cables or digital coaxial cables? Your speakers receive an ANALOG SIGNAL. At some point your DIGITAL source is converted by a DAC back into analog. (A DAC is a digital to analog converter). When you hook up your CD player or DVD player to your receiver with Digital inputs your RECEIVER uses its DACS to convert that digital signal to analog for your speakers to play it. That your receiver may do some additional DIGITAL modification (ie dolby digital and DTS which are two COMPRESSION formats, or Dolby Pro Logic) has no bearing on the fact that the signal is converted into an analog signal before it goes to your speakers. Converting Digital to Analog is NOT the same as reading and writing a stream of 1s and 0s as you point out may be done flawlessly by most PCs. It is in the conversion of the digital signal to the original analog signal that high end DACS sound better. If you get a high end CD player, the digital to analog conversion will be done by the CD players DACS and may well sound better than sending the digital signal to the receiver, which still has to convert that digital signal to an analog speaker. If the Digital to analog converters in a high end CD player are better than the ones in a Receiver, the resulting sound will be better when you use the CDs analog outputs (and let the CD do the digital analog conversion, instead of the receiver) Why do you think some RECEIVERS sound better than others? At some point, the sound waves your ears register music from have been converted by your stereo system back into ANALOG, whether you listen to a high end CD player with outstanding DACS, or a DVD player with a DTS movie, played by your receiver in 7.1 channels. Your EARS do not hear ones and zeroes, they hear sound waves of different frequencies and amplitudes.

I would also briefly point out that two hi fidelity sources, DVD Audio and SACD both primarily use analog outputs and are NOT processed by the Receiver (except in some very high end matching units that use proprietary digital interfaces, but again, before the signal goes to the speakers it is converted to analog)

So, although you are correct in saying that if you hook up a CD player via digital outputs no there will be no difference. (DVD players do show differences, digital signals or not, ie ghosting, artifacts, chroma bug etc. in different models), I believe that you are mistaken or misinformed about your statements about analog. Ultimately we ALL listen to Analog. DIGITAL is a means to bring us the original analog signal as closely as possible. However, most sounds in MUSIC and MOVIES are orignally analog (human voices, piano keys, saxaphones, guitar strings, drums, etc) converted to Digital, and then SOMEWHERE in the chain of your stereo or Surround Sound System, converted BACK TO ANALOG!

 

[Nick250]

What am I missing here. Based on the last two posts you guys seem to be argueing the same side of the issue ie digital is digital and ones and zeros are ones and zeros and thats that. At some point the ones and zeros need to be converted to an analog signal to send to the speaker and and a DAC does this. Some DACs sound different than others and it is personal prefference on which DACs sound better. Is not this what you both are saying? Or am I missing something because it's late and I am tired.

Nick

 

[BostonMark]

dac dac goose

Nick, - Nope, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

and to answer the central question of the post!, if you are happy with the sound of your receiver, and you use all digital inputs into your receiver, you DON'T need a CD player, playing CDs in your DVD player is just fine, because your Receiver is doing all the digital to analog conversion. Use the extra money to pick up some more CDs and DVDs.

Another idea for convenience, instead of a CD jukebox, connect your computer to your home theater system, and rip all your CDs onto the harddrive into either wavs or mp3s (at a bitrate that you cannot hear the difference between the original CD and the Mp3.) That way, you can listen to and play all your music at the touch of a button with any number of music organization programs readily available online.

 

[westcott]

Nick, - Nope, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

and to answer the central question of the post!, if you are happy with the sound of your receiver, and you use all digital inputs into your receiver, you DON'T need a CD player, playing CDs in your DVD player is just fine, because your Receiver is doing all the digital to analog conversion. Use the extra money to pick up some more CDs and DVDs.

Another idea for convenience, instead of a CD jukebox, connect your computer to your home theater system, and rip all your CDs onto the harddrive into either wavs or mp3s (at a bitrate that you cannot hear the difference between the original CD and the Mp3.) That way, you can listen to and play all your music at the touch of a button with any number of music organization programs readily available online.

You got the idea BostonMark,

Spend your hard earned money on a good receiver with a quality DAC and forget all the marketing hype used to sell expensive CD players.

 

[Nick250]

Nick, - Nope, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

I feel better already By the way Mark I live in Waltham. We are practially neighbors if your screen name refers to where you live.

 

[BostonMark]

near there

Nick, actually, I live in Whitman, (40 minutes south of Boston) but Whitman Mark just didn't have the same cache. You live near Natural Sounds, the hi end shop I was referring to! It is in Framingham right on Route 9.

Wesscott, I guess after arguing, we actually agree. Somewhere in the chain, it does pay to have a great quality Digital to Analog converter. I picked up the Meridian, because it was a fraction of it's original list price, it's built like a tank, and it really does have a great DAC, I like it much better than the one in my Yamaha 5280 Receiver. Im in no hurry to get rid of that though, it has multiple digital inputs, 6 channel input for DVD-Audio, 2 component inputs, preouts for adding separate amplification (which I did for the front two channels) and a pretty nice sound. For casual listening, I have my Compaq 120 gig compter hooked into the system via soundblaster card with optical digital out, and I use Music Match program to select music. I have about 700 CDs ripped onto the hard drive so far.