upgrading tweeters.

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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
how much do you think upgrading the tweeters in my cheap sony floorstanders would improve the sound? i've considered it several times. would upgrading the mid-range improve it as well?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Unless you are also going to upgrade the crossover to correspond to the new tweeter, then it isn't as simple as just tossing another tweeter in there. The results of a project like this are unpredictable at best. That means it could work, depending on the tweeter chosen, but then again it might not.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
well i think installing a new tweeter would be simple as long as i make sure it has a good response down to 2.5khz, i'm pretty sure the tweeter is crossed over higher then that, also i could also check the sensitivity of the tweeter and make sure it matches the speakers. what do you think?
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i've also considered upgrading the x-over as well.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
It isn't just that the tweeter has a good response below the x-over point, how it interacts with the other driver is usually something that is compensated for in the network design. Chances are good that it will work, but it almost certainly won't be perfect. You would basically need to take measurements and look at the overall response and see how it blends after the fact. If the tweeters that are in there aren't great, it could very well be an improvement even if it isn't perfect response.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
the tweeters are not very good at all, very harsh. luckily tweeters aren't like woofers and dont require enclosures to "fit" them correctly. and what kind of measurements?
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
how much do you think upgrading the tweeters in my cheap sony floorstanders would improve the sound? i've considered it several times. would upgrading the mid-range improve it as well?
Depends on you budget. You might be better off getting a good pair of Behringer 2030ps and a Dayton SUB-120 HT. Then toss all your speakers.

Good Luck and Good Sound,

Forest Man
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i already got some good polk monitor 40s, i love how they sound, i'm using the sonys as a second setup in a different room, they sound so terrible compared to my polks.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, the blue line there is where the mid is rolling off and the green is the tweeter, but the red is the resulting response of the speaker as a system with the two drivers blending together and a smoother transition like that is what you would ideally be looking for (Danny is one of the best speaker designers around IMO) AFAIK, this is done with a sweep so you get an idea of the speaker across the range, specifically to look at that transition.

If it is just an experiment and you don't care if those guys get messed up in the process, it certainly won't hurt anything to try it.
 
S

skers_54

Full Audioholic
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i'm just trying to get more accurate sound that isn't so harsh, i doubt any sort of work on it will make it worse as it is already not that good. i bet all those guys did when they designed them was plugged the numbers into a box calc or something like that and built accordingly.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Add rockwool to the speaker and you will see a bigger positive difference.

toss in a few rib braces and you really improve the speakers.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
oh im sure, they aren't damped or braced at all. but that's not going to fix the harsh tweeters. i guess i can just play around and see what happens, i'm sure it would certainly improve the sound as it's already harsh. they really arent terrible speakers and i think i can improve them with some work as i would not want to sell them, they have great low end and great dynamics.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
oh im sure, they aren't damped or braced at all. but that's not going to fix the harsh tweeters. i guess i can just play around and see what happens, i'm sure it would certainly improve the sound as it's already harsh. they really arent terrible speakers and i think i can improve them with some work as i would not want to sell them, they have great low end and great dynamics.
Of course they are terrible speakers!

You can't just change tweeters. I would bet the problem is a lousy crude crossover design than a bad tweeter alone.

A change in driver pretty much always involves a change in crossover.

A different tweeter must have the same impedance curve and acoustic response. The acoustic response of different tweeters is pretty much unique.
Also you have to make sure the tweeter is not driven down to its free air resonance.

I have found that by far the commonest reason for a harsh sounding tweeter is that the crossover is sending far too much power to the tweeter in the region of its Fs. In my designs I make sure the tweeter is 24 db down by its Fs.

I would bet big money that the crossovers in those speakers are just awful in every design parameter, and not worth any trouble, but a decent burial.

A good passive crossover is expensive, and they do require good inductors with a good wire gauge. In most applications iron core inductors should be avoided. Electrolytic caps in passive crossovers are not to be recommended.

Unfortunately these criteria exclude most speakers under the 1.5 K per pair bracket.

That is why I'm certain that much more could be achieved at cheaper cost with active speakers now.

There are now research papers showing active digital crossovers can precisely time the drivers, with the result that moving coil loudspeakers with crossovers can now reproduce a respectable square wave. That is a huge advance. Until now that benchmark has only been achieved by the Quad ESL.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
yes and this is one of the reasons i have been considering going active. but not on those speakers, on my polks. i have heard an active system and it was by far the most realistic sounding thing ever, passives seem to add some weird artifact that i can't come up with the words for.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
yes and this is one of the reasons i have been considering going active. but not on those speakers, on my polks. i have heard an active system and it was by far the most realistic sounding thing ever, passives seem to add some weird artifact that i can't come up with the words for.
You will still have to design the active crossover custom to those drivers, just like you would a passive crossover.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
active crossovers allow you to adjust crossover frequencies though.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
active crossovers allow you to adjust crossover frequencies though.
Its not that simple. The crossover point is only one issue and a minor one. The issue is orders among a host of others.

All drivers have acoustic roll off at the top and bottom end of their response. So in essence they are all band pass filters, and all have different slopes.

So if you have a woofer that starts rolling off first order and the transitions to second order, and the tweeter rolls of second order and transitions to third order. Then the low pass filter would be third order transitiong to second order, and the high pass filter second order transitioning to first order, to make symmetrical composite fourth order slopes.

Then very often, the woofer will have break up mode peaks within the pass band of the filters, and so a notch filter is required.

In order to get a smooth response at crossover the composite slopes of the electrical filters and the acoustic slopes of the drivers, must be symmetrical at the crossover point and optimize driver performance paying attention to the off axis response of the drivers and issues such as the resonance of tweeters and midrange units etc.

In addition to all that the crossover has to compensate for the diffraction loss of the narrow cabinet.

Designing any speaker crossover is a huge juggling act.
 
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