Upgrading from basic HTIB system

[TwistedEdge]

Hi everyone,

New here, but I've been lurking for a bit and reading around. I have not been able to find solid information for my current situation, so I thought I'd ask around.

I currently own a 63'' Samsung plasma tv and I'm in the midst of purchasing three home theater chairs. Now I need to figure out the sound system I'm going to use.

My budget is ~$2,500 but I'm in no rush for this. I'm happy to wait for a good sale to make my purchase, so my budget can stretch upwards of $3,000 since I can likely get that cheaper at some point in time.

My room is 14x12x9. It is a bit strange because it's in a loft style apartment, so the ceiling behind me is slanted downwards. This could work out well as I imagine I could mount speakers on it instead of behind the chairs.

That's about as far as I've gotten. I purchased a horrible surround sound system when I purchased the tv on a whim, without doing research and it kicked me in the ***. The other point of consideration is I do want to move in 3-4 years into a more traditional style room a bit larger, so the speakers need to be able to handle a slightly larger room, upwards of 20'.

Anyone have any suggestions on where to start? Obviously I'm going to need everything from subs to speakers to a receiver. I know too little about audio to know what is and isn't worth the price I pay. I've heard great things about Klipsch but couldn't tell you them apart from Bose (It's that bad). Oh, one last sidenote, I'm Canadian so some of the traditional sources of obtaining the equipment isn't available to me.

I appreciate the help in advance.

 

[shadyJ]

I've heard great things about Klipsch but couldn't tell you them apart from Bose (It's that bad). Oh, one last sidenote, I'm Canadian so some of the traditional sources of obtaining the equipment isn't available to me.

I appreciate the help in advance.

You would definitely be able to tell them apart. Klipsch has high-powered tweeters whereas bose don't have any tweeters at all. You couldn't find two system that sound more different. I would skip Bose, but if you have anywhere around you where you could audition Klipsch speakers I would urge you to do so, they can be very good. On your budget I would stay away from tower speakers, for the front stage just get bookshelf speakers and good subwoofers. Some good Canadian speaker manufacturers are Paradigm and NHT, you ought to see if you can go hear some of those if you can. A very good Canadian subwoofer company is Funk Audio, but their subs might be a bit pricey for your budget. SVS has a distributer in Canada, I would look into getting one of the Plus subs from them, that is easily their best bang for the buck product.
There are a lot of good receivers, but on your budget I would stay away from the entry level ones. Some good brands are Yamaha, Marantz, Harman/Kardon, Denon, and Pioneer, but these aren't the only good ones. Btw, I would just go for a 5.1 or 3.1 setup to start with, 7.1 doesn't offer any significant advantages over 5.1.

 

[TwistedEdge]

You would definitely be able to tell them apart. Klipsch has high-powered tweeters whereas bose don't have any tweeters at all. You couldn't find two system that sound more different. I would skip Bose, but if you have anywhere around you where you could audition Klipsch speakers I would urge you to do so, they can be very good. On your budget I would stay away from tower speakers, for the front stage just get bookshelf speakers and good subwoofers. Some good Canadian speaker manufacturers are Paradigm and NHT, you ought to see if you can go hear some of those if you can. A very good Canadian subwoofer company is Funk Audio, but their subs might be a bit pricey for your budget. SVS has a distributer in Canada, I would look into getting one of the Plus subs from them, that is easily their best bang for the buck product.
There are a lot of good receivers, but on your budget I would stay away from the entry level ones. Some good brands are Yamaha, Marantz, Harman/Kardon, Denon, and Pioneer, but these aren't the only good ones. Btw, I would just go for a 5.1 or 3.1 setup to start with, 7.1 doesn't offer any significant advantages over 5.1.

Keeping everything in the same level of quality and within budget, what sort of speakers would you say would work best? looked at funk, and yeah they would blow my budget way out of the water.

 

[shadyJ]

I just noticed I should have said PSB instead of NHT as a Canadian speaker manufacturer. Anyway, a more specific kind of speaker I would be looking for is bookshelf speakers with 6.5" woofer with bass extension down to at least 70 hz with sensitivity in the upper 80s at least. One Canadian speaker which fits this criteria is the PSB Image B6. Get the matching center, and use compact bookshelf speaker for the rears like these or these. Add a sub like this one. For a receiver, you might try the Pioneer VSX 1122 k, or the Yamaha RX-V673, or the Denon AVR-2113CI. A system like that will sound real nice and ought to run you under $3k if you look around. I don't know Canadian prices very well though, hopefully the electronics don't cost much more up there then they do here.

For speakers, I would look at those PSBs and similar systems from other manufacturers like Paradigm, KEF, Klipsch, and NHT, to name a few highly regarded speaker makers. In Canada I would really go for that SVS PB12 Plus or PC12 Plus subs from Sonic Boom, unless you can take delivery across the border and avoid all those crazy import fees, at which point you would have a lot more great choices. To sum it up, I would go for heavy-duty bookshelf speaker fronts with a matching center speaker, smaller bookshelf speakers for the surrounds, an SVS Plus level sub from Sonic Boom, and one of the middle model receivers from a reputable electronics manufacturer.

 

[TwistedEdge]

Thanks again. Now, as a general tip, when trying to figure out my options, should I be looking at pre-made home theater sets or try and piece one together with individual speakers?

For example, Klipsch has various already built, but they also have smaller bookcase speakers and centers. Which should I be trying to figure out? The problem I have is that I have to look at each product, then Google an approximate cost to see if it would fit into my budget. Rinse and repeat until all parts are priced out and see where I stand.

 

[caper26]

I will be watching this thread closely and pitching in where I can. I am also Canadian and have been very careful with my $$$. I am not cheap, just smart when it comes to shopping and don't pay MSRP for anything if I can. If you are in no rush, KEEP IT THAT WAY! and you will come out way out on top for value versus cash spent. That said, trying to piece one together is what I would do, but keep in mind, that your front 3 (left right and center) all have to be same brand AND model. This is called timbre matching (sound properties of each speaker is identical). This is important. After that, having same model is a 'nice to have' and not necessarily a must. Do you plan on doing multi channel listening or stereo when listening to music? IE, all speakers playing or only the left & right +/- the sub?

Are you against buying on the used market? (kijiji, craigslist, etc)? What city are you in?

 

[shadyJ]

If you are talking about HTiB (home-theater-in-a-box) type deals where you get receiver, speakers, and sub all in one box, forget it, those are all terrible. If you are talking about speakers made in a series, like say the Klipsch Reference line of speakers, ok, that would be much better, but usually the subwoofers that come with these sets are mediocre, which is why I am steering you toward the SVS. What you want is the front stage speakers to match: the front left and right and center speakers. The surround speakers don't matter as much, so whatever you do do not spend a fortune on those- I would get bookshelf speakers for surround instead of bipole or dipole speakers. The subwoofer doesn't make a difference at all if they match the brand or series, and you are pretty limited by budget and country for good subs.

As far as googling the approximate prices, yeah you'll have to do that. Here is a suggestion for Klipsch: RB-51 bookshelf for front left right, RC-52 center speaker, RB-41 for surrounds. That set ought to cost you around $1k, which leaves plenty of room for the subwoofer and receiver. If you buy from a dealer, you might get a discount for buying a complete set if you ask for one. Klipsch also has a subwoofer that looks like it might be good, called the SW-115, you might see if any of those are available around your neck of the woods.

 

[TwistedEdge]

I will be watching this thread closely and pitching in where I can. I am also Canadian and have been very careful with my $$$. I am not cheap, just smart when it comes to shopping and don't pay MSRP for anything if I can. If you are in no rush, KEEP IT THAT WAY! and you will come out way out on top for value versus cash spent. That said, trying to piece one together is what I would do, but keep in mind, that your front 3 (left right and center) all have to be same brand AND model. This is called timbre matching (sound properties of each speaker is identical). This is important. After that, having same model is a 'nice to have' and not necessarily a must. Do you plan on doing multi channel listening or stereo when listening to music? IE, all speakers playing or only the left & right +/- the sub?

Are you against buying on the used market? (kijiji, craigslist, etc)? What city are you in?

Makes sense. I plan on having the main use for this system be for movies, sports & gaming, but music would be a big priority for me too. Due to that, I don't know why I wouldn't want all speakers running most of the time. Also, I'm just outside Toronto in Kitchener.

If you are talking about HTiB (home-theater-in-a-box) type deals where you get receiver, speakers, and sub all in one box, forget it, those are all terrible. If you are talking about speakers made in a series, like say the Klipsch Reference line of speakers, ok, that would be much better, but usually the subwoofers that come with these sets are mediocre, which is why I am steering you toward the SVS. What you want is the front stage speakers to match: the front left and right and center speakers. The surround speakers don't matter as much, so whatever you do do not spend a fortune on those- I would get bookshelf speakers for surround instead of bipole or dipole speakers. The subwoofer doesn't make a difference at all if they match the brand or series, and you are pretty limited by budget and country for good subs.

As far as googling the approximate prices, yeah you'll have to do that. Here is a suggestion for Klipsch: RB-51 bookshelf for front left right, RC-52 center speaker, RB-41 for surrounds. That set ought to cost you around $1k, which leaves plenty of room for the subwoofer and receiver. If you buy from a dealer, you might get a discount for buying a complete set if you ask for one. Klipsch also has a subwoofer that looks like it might be good, called the SW-115, you might see if any of those are available around your neck of the woods.

Thanks. Yeah, I was originally looking at sets like the Klipsch G-28 HTiB. I figured the big names wouldn't sell crappy sets, but I guess I was wrong. I'm not against looking at shipping from the US if I need to. I can always drive to the states and pick up something from a big box if they carry it if it's really worth it.

So I guess the main point is to focus very heavily on the two stage speakers and the center, then sub then receiver and finally rears in that order. Am I correct with that? Also, the front 3 speakers must (or should) match, ideally in the same product line.

Again going back to my original concern, I want to purchase something that will not only work for my current layout, but also for when I move. I don't want to waste $3,000 now only to have to spend it all again in a few years time when I move into a larger place. Will the current suggestions of bookshelf type speakers still work when I move? I assume you're suggesting that style based on my budget rather than space, yes?

 

[TwistedEdge]

Alright, so working on building some options here...

So far...

Option 1: PSB

Center - PSB Image C5
Stage - PSB Image 6 Bookshelf speakers
Rear - PSB B4 Compact Bookshelf
Sub- SVS PC12-Plus w/ 12.5'' woofer & DSP Amp
Receiver - Pioneer VSX 1122 k or Yamaha RX-V673

Option 2: Klipsch

Center - RC52
Stage - RB51
Rear - RS41
Sub- SVS PC12-Plus w/ 12.5'' woofer & DSP Amp
Receiver - Pioneer VSX 1122 k or Yamaha RX-V673

Option 3: KEF

Center - T101c
Stage - T101
Rear - Could use maybe the RS41's from Klipsch or PSB rears
Sub - Same as options 1 & 2
Receiver - Same as options 1 & 2

I'll work on pricing it out later. I have a local store who carries Klipsch & Paradigm. They've said they can certainly work out deals on sets. So long as I'm staying in the high end of my budget, I'm happy. Once I work out great sets, I'll start to figure out pricing and listen to the speakers where I can find them. I guess next up is a Paradigm set.

On a side note, I'm tempted to look at going with some RC62s and RB61s on the Klipsch set. This will likely come down to price and listening to the difference.

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks. Yeah, I was originally looking at sets like the Klipsch G-28 HTiB. I figured the big names wouldn't sell crappy sets, but I guess I was wrong. I'm not against looking at shipping from the US if I need to. I can always drive to the states and pick up something from a big box if they carry it if it's really worth it.

If you can pick stuff up from the states, then other sub makers become competitive in price. Hsu, Rythmik, and Outlaw are worth looking at. A Hsu VTF3 will rock your room nicely and doesn't cost nearly as much as an SVS Plus sub. This gives you room in your budget for better speakers.

So I guess the main point is to focus very heavily on the two stage speakers and the center, then sub then receiver and finally rears in that order. Am I correct with that? Also, the front 3 speakers must (or should) match, ideally in the same product line.

Yes, this is what I would do. I would give the sub just as much weight in importance as the front stage speakers though.

Again going back to my original concern, I want to purchase something that will not only work for my current layout, but also for when I move. I don't want to waste $3,000 now only to have to spend it all again in a few years time when I move into a larger place. Will the current suggestions of bookshelf type speakers still work when I move? I assume you're suggesting that style based on my budget rather than space, yes?

The bookshelf speakers will work just fine as long as you have a decent subwoofer. The main advantage with tower speakers is that they have lower bass extension than bookshelf speakers, but the range in which the extend lower than bookshelf speakers should be covered by a subwoofer anyway, so there is no need for tower speakers if you have a decent subwoofer. Your speakers will work just fine in a larger space as long as the subwoofer can keep up.

 

[shadyJ]

On a side note, I'm tempted to look at going with some RC62s and RB61s on the Klipsch set. This will likely come down to price and listening to the difference.

The RB-61 and RC-62 will be a bit more powerful so they might be more future proof if you move into a large room. If you go to a dealer to compare speakers, bring some tunes you know well to listen with, that will illustrate the difference between speakers much better than listening to stuff you aren't familiar with.

 

[TwistedEdge]

If you can pick stuff up from the states, then other sub makers become competitive in price. Hsu, Rythmik, and Outlaw are worth looking at. A Hsu VTF3 will rock your room nicely and doesn't cost nearly as much as an SVS Plus sub. This gives you room in your budget for better speakers.

Yes, this is what I would do. I would give the sub just as much weight in importance as the front stage speakers though.

The bookshelf speakers will work just fine as long as you have a decent subwoofer. The main advantage with tower speakers is that they have lower bass extension than bookshelf speakers, but the range in which the extend lower than bookshelf speakers should be covered by a subwoofer anyway, so there is no need for tower speakers if you have a decent subwoofer. Your speakers will work just fine in a larger space as long as the subwoofer can keep up.

Where can I pick up those US subs? Do big box carry them generally over there? I know most big box price match, so I'm not worried about cost, just availability. I generally cross the border near Niagara Falls, so the US side would be Lewiston, NY.

Also, does anyone have any experience with KEF stuff? They seem to be really weak. I had a listen to them earlier and thought they sounded subpar. A few reviews online seem to agree with me on that.

So far I'm leaning closer to the PSB and Klipsch, but need to do more research first before I can say for sure.


*Edit - Did some research, and Hsu does ship to Canada, but even better, I may be able to use a UPS location as a shipping address and just drive across the border and pick it up.

 

[zieglj01]

Also, does anyone have any experience with KEF stuff? They seem to be really weak. I had a listen to them earlier and thought they sounded subpar. A few reviews online seem to agree with me on that.

So far I'm leaning closer to the PSB and Klipsch, but need to do more research first before I can say for sure.


*Edit - Did some research, and Hsu does ship to Canada, but even better, I may be able to use a UPS location as a shipping address and just drive across the border and pick it up.

HSU is a good option on subs

Which KEF speakers did you listen to, was it the Thin Panel speakers?
If so, then check out their bookshelf speakers and maybe some towers.
Even the KEF 4" Egg satellites sound nice to me. However, I would stay
from the bookshelf speakers on up.

PSB is also nice, and a lot of people like Klipsch > listen and make sure
that Klipsch is for you, and use your own material >> Clear your mind of
personal opinions and reviews, when you audition speakers.

As far as thin sound, it is Bose that sounds thin to me.

 

[TwistedEdge]

HSU is a good option on subs

Which KEF speakers did you listen to, was it the Thin Panel speakers?
If so, then check out their bookshelf speakers and maybe some towers.
Even the KEF 4" Egg satellites sound nice to me. However, I would stay
from the bookshelf speakers on up.

PSB is also nice, and a lot of people like Klipsch > listen and make sure
that Klipsch is for you, and use your own material >> Clear your mind of
personal opinions and reviews, when you audition speakers.

As far as thin sound, it is Bose that sounds thin to me.

Thanks. Yeah, I heard the T100's recently. They are the smaller panel speakers. As for PSB, reading a lot of opinions on the net around PSB vs Klipsch and I hear two very important things...

1) They are as opposite as can be in sound.
2) They both have very positive reviews with very good pros and few cons. Honestly, I was able to find more people siding with PSB over Klipsch when comparing the two, but they were also very old reviews.

The problem I have is I can't find anyone nearly close to me that has PSB on display to listen to. I do however have a shop nearby that has Klipsch on display that I can listen to.

Can I get some opinions on these two companies? For mainly HT use, which may be more practical? I hear Klipsch takes much less power to run and thus can get very loud very easily, but PSB has a more flattened sound making it more enjoyable to listen to. This is what I read, and without being able to compare them I'm kind of conflicted.

I know I can listen to Klipsch here and maybe drive an hour to hear PSB, but I would have really loved to listen to both side-by-side so I can really hear the difference. Thoughts?

Also, what about Paradigm? How do they stack up to these two?

 

[shadyJ]

Paradigm has a reputation for being forward sounding much like Klipsch. I once had an opportunity to listen to some of the upper model Paradigm towers (I forgot the exact model) next to some Klipsch RF-83 towers, and I found they sounded pretty similar. They both sounded good to my ears. I would gladly have either one.

 

[zieglj01]

Thanks. Yeah, I heard the T100's recently. They are the smaller panel speakers. As for PSB, reading a lot of opinions on the net around PSB vs Klipsch and I hear two very important things...

1) They are as opposite as can be in sound.
2) They both have very positive reviews with very good pros and few cons. Honestly, I was able to find more people siding with PSB over Klipsch when comparing the two, but they were also very old reviews.

The problem I have is I can't find anyone nearly close to me that has PSB on display to listen to. I do however have a shop nearby that has Klipsch on display that I can listen to.

Can I get some opinions on these two companies? For mainly HT use, which may be more practical?

I will give you my opinion, and I have owned PSB and Klipsch speakers.
However, I do not guarantee which is best for you, or that you will hear
things the same way.

A lot of people like Klipsch and are happy with them - I can not live with
them on a day to day bases. They can be good with a lot of movies and
decent with some music. For me, the horn nature is a little bit too forward
and they have a somewhat sharp and edgy sound character >> Also, they
tend to be lacking in good midrange resolution. And, based on some reviews
and measurements, they are not as sensitive as the Klipsch specs state >
However their sensitivity is still good, and they can get loud.

PSB is more balanced and refined to me, and they also have good dynamics,
and they will also get loud >> They do a good job for movies, and are good
musical speakers. The music sounds nice with musical scores in the movies.
They are not forward or laid back >> and PSB tends to have better midrange
resolution. PSB also has a good wide soundstage.

It comes down to preference, choice and taste - and for some rooms the
the controlled/directivity horn nature may be better suited. Plus, Klipsch
does have some big towers, that can handle the power.

 

[caper26]

Futureshop sometimes has great deals (buy one get one free), or heavily discounted sales. Especially around boxing day. Keep an eye there from week to week, or even visit the store for in-store deals that won't be advertised. There might even be the option of ordering from Vanns and using a Kinect point for pick up. Amazing prices at that place right now...

 

[Irishman]

Thanks again. Now, as a general tip, when trying to figure out my options, should I be looking at pre-made home theater sets or try and piece one together with individual speakers?

For example, Klipsch has various already built, but they also have smaller bookcase speakers and centers. Which should I be trying to figure out? The problem I have is that I have to look at each product, then Google an approximate cost to see if it would fit into my budget. Rinse and repeat until all parts are priced out and see where I stand.

I have always been impressed by the Klipsch Icon W series, ever since they were released a few years back. It has a lot of the traditional dynamic qualities that Klipsch is known for, but it makes a change for the better in terms of music listening (for when you just gotta pop in that new CD or stream a new music file from your PC, etc for that "you are there" feeling). The change they made was to smooth off the high end that can make Klipsch difficult for some to listen to for long periods. The end result is a very appealing sound that deserves a listen. Also, the cabinet design isn't the typical vinyl textured-to-look-like-wood you see in most mass market Klipsch speaks. It is real wood veneer, and it's gorgeous. Klipsch calls it "an exotic, non-endangered Berlinia veneer from West Africa", and it's available in two colors - cabernet and espresso. (I prefer the look of the cabernet myself. Like the name implies, it is a red hue that blends in well with many room designs).

The cabinet size is very wife friendly (if that matters), again, unlike a lot of Klipsch speakers, which can be very huge and aggressive-looking.

The pics and specs on them can be found here (don't be intimidated by the MSRP, as they're available online for much better deals):

Icon W - Icon W Speakers | Klipsch

New Egg has the cabernet WF-35 floorstander for $269 each (this includes a $50 off promo code good through 9/5), with free shipping: Newegg.com - Klipsch WF-35 Icon-W Series Cabernet Floorstanding Loudspeaker

New Egg also has the WC-24 center for $159 (again, a $70 promo code thru 9/5) with free shipping: Newegg.com - Klipsch WC-24 Icon-W Series Cabernet Center Speaker Each

New Egg also has the WS-24 Cabernet surround for $149 each (no promo code this time) Newegg.com - Klipsch WS-24 Icon-W Series Cabernet Surround Speaker

This puts you at $995 without a sub. Some of the other guys have made solid sub recommendations (SVS, HSU are always fine choices). And honest to God, I'm both a listener, and a hobbyist, and to my ear, this would give you a system that would be very hard to beat for both film-watching AND music-listening, at its price.

I hope this helps.

 

[TwistedEdge]

Time to bump this back up. Had a listen to the PSB speakers a few days back and had a chance to reflect. The speakers sounded nice, but I'll be honest, they didn't blow me away. It could be due to the sub they used, I'm not sure (didn't catch the model, think it was PSB too). Anyways, received a few quotes and wanted to know how competitive it was and the thoughts on the setup.

Now, I will say that I found the amp's to be overpriced and the speaker wire expensive. Not that $40 is much to cry over, but can still get it cheaper elsewhere. Not sure on the gauge, so asked to clarify that point. No idea how good the pricing on the speakers is though, thus why I've asked for advice here.

Option 1 - $2,200

Amp - Denon 2113 - $675
Center - C5 - $400
Front - B6 - $500
Rear - B4 - $320
Speaker Wire (?) - 100ft - $40

Option 2 - $2,300

Same as above, but with B5's in the rear for $400.

Option 3 - $2,750

Amp - Denon 2313 - $875
Center - C5 - $400
Front - T5 - $800
Rear - B4 - $320
Speaker Wire - $40

Option 4 - $2,850

Same as above but with B5's in rear for $400.


I plan on going to listen to the Klipsch's later this week.

 

[TwistedEdge]

One thing I should also ask is if the 2313 is even necessary? I've heard the 2113 should power my setup, even if I end up with the T5s just fine. The sales guy at my local store keeps trying to reference it as "putting a V4 engine into a truck. It'll run, but not nearly as well as a V8."

Now, while I have not asked about the value in the T5s, online reviews say they are worth it for sure. It seems I can't really go wrong with whatever setup I do with PSB though, since the quality is always very high.