Upgrade system help

J

Jetblack3

Audioholic Intern
As the title says " I want to upgrade my system" Like alot of you I spend alot of time out in a man cave. In my case the cave is a 48x72 pole building with 16ft ceilings. I do all sorts of hobby work in there from wood working to wrenching on Harleys, snowmobiles, cars, etc. to just sitting back enjoying some cold ones with friends. I have the shop broken down into 3 rooms where all of the stated hobbies tend to take place. Currently I have a set of speakers wired to each room being fed from a Yamaha reciever thats putting out about 90W per channel. This routes through a niles 4 channel speaker selector so that I can listen in one or all 3 rooms if I wish. All 3 rooms are finished off with the 2 smaller rooms being under a loft with drop ceilings, drywalled walls and concrete floors and big room being finished off with plywood walls steel ceiling and concrete floors. So I guess acoustically it isn't ideal but it is what it is. I have Polk Audio LSI9's in the 2 small rooms and a pair of cheaper tower speakers in the big room but am planning to upgrade these to some nicer polk towers soon. My desire is to feed the speakers more power to jam'em harder but the Yammi isn't capable. The Polks are 4ohm so they work the yammi pretty hard. The polks are capable of handling 200w but the Yamaha isn't even getting half that to them. From all that I've read the Polks really begin to shine when you feed'em enough power. I have looked for more powerful recievers but there doesn't seem to really be anything that supplies much more. I don't need a Tuner with am/fm or alot of fancy gizmos cause It won't be used for radio or home theatere, just cd's and MP3. I've tried to read up on amplifiers but they seem to begin around 250w per channel and only go up from there. This seems like maybe a tad too much ? I guess what I think I need is about double the power that my Yamaha reciever is putting out ? Given how my shop is set up with 3 sets of speakers (actually have a 4th set of wires run just nothing hooked to'em yet) I was thinking something that could supply 200w of power to each set of speakers.

This is the part where you audio nutz can point me in the right direction or set me straight if you will. What would you do to get more umph! in this cave that is still going to be safe ??
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
I have an Emotiva XPA-5.
XPA-5 | 200W x 5 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier

It's 5 channels w/ 200 watts per channel. Only using stereo, you could feed a couple rooms. I might consider putting 4 speakers in the big room and driving them with the XPA-5, and just let the Yamaha drive the speakers in the 2 small rooms. I suppose your Yamaha has pre-outs. Hook them up to the amp for the big room, and continue using the normal speaker outputs to the small rooms.

They have a 2 channel w/ 300wpc, but it's close to the same price.
XPA-2 | 300W x 2 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier

Lots of people here like Emotiva a lot... a few, not so much. I like mine a lot.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
First and foremost, dump that Niles Speaker selector. The passive volume controllers of this type are cheap and commonly used, but are not the correct way of setting up a multi-room audio distribution. More on a better way to do this later.

Don't worry about the power rating so much as the fact that the LSI9 are pretty demanding load. The impedance and phase from these measurements shows that they will definitely benefit from a good amp.



In terms of how much power, using Sensitivity of 87dB/W/m, keeping LSI9 within 2 ft of a wall, and at a listening distance of 10 ft; using an online SPL calculator, one can see that feeding a pair 100W will give an ear bleeding 106 dB SPL.

If your Yamaha receiver has a pre-outs, you can use something like this Rolls Distribution Amp (in place of the Niles Selector) to split the signal into 4 identical stereo signals. If not, you can connect the CD player directly into the Rolls input. It also has a 1/8" headphone input to temporarily connect any portable devices like iPods.

Now you put the outputs of the Rolls DA into 4 stereo amps with built in volume control. Why do you need an amp with volume control? Because the level knobs on the Rolls DA are not "volume" knobs. Instead they are a one time set and forget knob to match the output level with the input sensitivity of the amp inputs. This is used to insure that you will not clip the amp inputs.

Now, for the amps to power your LSI9, the AudioSource Amp 110 is rated for 110W into 4 Ohm loads and will be perfect. I did not see which speaker you have as the third set, so hesitantly I would say that the Amp 110 will work for them too.

The beauty of this approach is that in the future, if you swap out a LSI9 pair for something needing more power, you only need to change the specific amp feeding that set.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I would look at this Sherbourn (Emotiva) Amp - good price and nice options.
It will have some power - and built-in speaker selector
SHERBOURN 4Z-75 4-Zone Amplifier w/ Speaker Selector | Accessories4less
This is a very viable option.

The only issue I see is this,
Any combination of zones may be enabled as long as the overall load on each channel of the amplifier remains at or above 2 ohms (4 pairs of 8 ohm speakers, two pairs of 4 ohm speakers, or 2 pairs of 8 ohm speakers and one pair of 4 ohm speakers all satisfy this requirement).
The problem goes away if the OP switches out the LSI9 to easier to drive speakers.

EDIT: Also, the volume level is the same across all engaged zones.
 
Last edited:
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
This is a very viable option.

The only issue I see is this,
The problem goes away if the OP switches out the LSI9 to easier to drive speakers.

EDIT: Also, the volume level is the same across all engaged zones.
There are some limitations - however, does one need to run all zones at the same time?
Plus there is still the option to use that Yamaha receiver, in some area or form factor.
Also the OP seems to be from the head-banger side, as far as volume.

I would keep this Sherbourn option on a short list
 
J

Jetblack3

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for the replys so far ! This of course is going to generate more questions so i can hopefully narrow down my quest.

Herbu; I've heard great things about the Emotiva products and figured going that route but was shyed away a little with the power at 4 ohms for my polks.

Agarwalro; The Rolls distribution amp looks like it basically operates similar to the speaker selector but with added feature of being power control < is this correct ? How do I select which room I want sound in with this though ? The audiosource amp looks to be more affordable / kind of like the specs a little more on the 210 model

zeiglj01; what is my budget ? always an important thing to understand... Well i've already got good speakers with 2 set of LSI's , also have a large set of Infinity towers in my homes home theatre set up that never get used. Thought about bringing them to the cave and replacing the ones in my house with something a little smaller to offset some cost. So, for budget I'm willing to dump 1000-1500 if I can get a significant improvement.

If I go with the Emotiva i wouldn't need the Yamaha amp anymore would I ? would I still have tone control with the Emotiva ? Just run each set of speakers to an individual channel and jam ? and could add a 5th set in future if wanted...correct ? Would I still want the distribution amp ? Looks like about $1200 this route.

If I kept the Yamaha and done the Distribution amp and the audio source 210 I'd be running different sets of speakers off different amps ? Think I'll still be left wanting more from the Yamaha which is why I'm wanting to upgrade anyhow. About $600-700 this route. Either route is easily within budget.

A headbanger ? OK, yes I like it loud if its quality loud. I live in the country so neighbors are not an issue. To spec my rooms out a little better for ya, Room 1 / bar,game room 18x28 1 set of LSI9 and a definitive 600w sub another set of speaker wires run just not hooked up to anything. Thought about a small set of towers to box the room.----Room 2 bike/sled/tool room 16x18 1 set of LSI9--- Both sets of LSI's are up on modified tv wall mount stands in upper corners angled down. Room 3 kitchen/ everything else shop 48x54 1 set tower speakers up on loft 10 feet up in each corner angled down.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
If I go with the Emotiva i wouldn't need the Yamaha amp anymore would I ? would I still have tone control with the Emotiva?
No.
It is just an amp. All/any "tone" control would have to be done w/ your receiver.

Just run each set of speakers to an individual channel and jam ? and could add a 5th set in future if wanted...correct?
No.
1 channel = 1 speaker. A channel on the amp is not to drive a "set" of speakers. There are ways, but then you're splitting your power down to the neighborhood you have with your Yamaha.

You got some good advice above. If you want to run and control each room at the same time, but separately, you're better off with an amp for each room. The XPA-5 won't do that.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
For mainly CD's and MP3's all you need to get by is some AMP power, that will do
more justice to your LSi9 speakers - something like the Sherbourn will handle that.
I would think about upgrading the Definitive sub for your LSI9 speakers.

If you are going to box a room - I would use the same speakers and have 2 pairs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, your only going to get so much sound in a 48 x 54 shop - you will need more
than 1 set of speakers, and I would want them to have a higher sensitivity. Try to
do something with your Infinity speakers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the model number of your current Yamaha receiver?
 
J

Jetblack3

Audioholic Intern
Done a little homework today and have some more info for ya. My reciever is a Yamaha HTR 5860. It does have alot of cool features most of which I do not even use in its application, also have a AV-2300 at the house. Is one better suited than another ?

My Infinitys are Alpha 50's

The Sherbourn option looks very interesting and very affordable, seems they have gone out of business though... or been absorbed by Emotiva.

What kind of sub would you recommend, the Definitive supercube that I have now does nicely until you start to demand alot out of it then it gets muddy
 
J

Jetblack3

Audioholic Intern
We'll it's up and running. Got the Sherbourne amp and it does we'll. It will go into protect mode and fault out if IM pushing both sets of polks hard but with the extra power it's not necessary plus it drives the one set plenty good.

What about a sub now. Got any suggestions for stepping it up. Currently have the definitive supercube.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
What's left in your budget for a subwoofer?

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
The Rolls distribution amp looks like it basically operates similar to the speaker selector but with added feature of being power control < is this correct ? How do I select which room I want sound in with this though ? The audiosource amp looks to be more affordable / kind of like the specs a little more on the 210 model
The Rolls is different from the Niles in one critical way. Rolls works at line level signal (unamplified, what you get at the RCA of a CD/DVD player or MP3 player headphone out) and the Niles works at speaker level (post amplifier, what you would send to the speaker connections). This difference creates major differences in how the two affect sound.

The Rolls does volume control pre-amplification, like any stereo pre-amp.

The Niles does volume control by adding resistance to the speaker level signal path. This is problematic for 2 reasons.
1) You are losing power in the Niles if the volume is not maxed.
2) Speaker cable resistance must remain a small fraction of nominal speaker impedance to prevent adverse effects to sound quality. The design of the Niles effectively adds resistance to the speaker cable. So, your speaker will sound different based on the volume setting. Since you have long cable runs and the Polks are low nominal impedance, this consideration (that you have used the correct gauge speaker wire and that the Niles is not adding too much resistance to the signal path) should be looked into. That said, given your use being non-critical listening, I would say this is not a big deal. More on this here, http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

If you can estimate you speaker cable run lengths, I can tell you the correct gauge of wire to use.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
What kind of sub would you recommend, the Definitive supercube that I have now does nicely until you start to demand alot out of it then it gets muddy
Which of those three spaces are you putting this sub into?
 
J

Jetblack3

Audioholic Intern
The 18x28 room. Going to bring my 12" infinity down from the house to try it out. Have had a few weeks to enjoy the new changes with the Sherbourne and have been happy with it. Keeping my eyes open for another set of towers for the big room 48x54 since I've got the open channels on the Yamaha.

Thanks for the input guys !!
 

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