Upgrade advice needed!?!

F

footVOL

Audiophyte
Guys,

Just need a little advice, I'm trying to decide on the best speaker setup for my HT. I have a Bonus room over a 3 car garage (25x20x10h) with sloped ceilings starting at ~5 up the side walls. My Miitsu 82" sits along the longest wall in the room.

I have decided on the Aperion Grand series of speakers and SVS sub, but I'm not sure what route I should choose on the individual system components. Here is my quandary, I can either go with a 5.1 system with the Aperion Grand towers in the front, Grand Center and the Grand Bookshelves in the rear, with a single SVS SB13 sub.

Or go with a 7.2 system with Grand Bookshelves front and rear, Grand Center, and the new Aperion dipole/bipole for sides, with 2 SVS SB13s for the subs.

I'd be running either system with a Denon 3808 to begin with and a Denon 4311 & Emotiva XPA5 as funds allow. Most content is BR but also quite a bit of Apple TV rentals with the kids so DD would be all I'd have as source material 40% of the time.

I'd love to go all in with a 7.2 system with the towers, but the WAF will let me swing either towers or 2 subs and sides but not both. I do 80% HT and 20% music currently.

Im upgrading from a Klipsch Cinema 10 bookshelf system which I have been fairly happy with. I look forward to your guys responses..
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Welcome to the forum!

I think that you've picked two excellent companies to purchase from. As for towers and one sub versus bookshelves and two subs...hmmm. I don't think that you could go wrong with either choice, honestly. I run bookshelves with one Ultra (the cylinder version) in a similar sized room with openings to larger areas, and I think it works just fine. Two Ultras would be something else!

One thing, though, is that unless you plan on running those towers without the sub for music or whatever, you'll never really be using their low end because you'd almost surely want to run them as "small" and send the bass to the sub. So, having bookshelves makes sense to me.

You might want to consider getting those bookshelves and a single Ultra to start with. Saves some cash, and you might be happy with it. As a note, although I don't know if they still do, SVS used to give a discount (5%, I believe) if you bought more than one sub...or were a return customer.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I'm curious why your SVSound choice is the SB13-Plus? Is it just the physical size? In a room that large, my preference would lean strongly towards one of SVSound's ported subs that offers flatter response right down to 20Hz or lower and has higher output with lower distortion. The sealed SB13-Plus is a heck of a good sub, don't get me wrong! But it is meant for a small-to-medium sized room where the anticipated "room gain" will even out its frequency response in the lowest octave.

In all honesty, most folks don't play their systems loud enough to notice that a sub like the SB13-Plus starts to roll off at around 40Hz because it is essentially flat all the way down to about 23Hz so long as you keep the output to around 90-93dB or lower. It's when you start to crank it louder that the slope in the frequency response starts to show up, but also where the room gain of a smaller room really starts to kick in.

Anywho, I'll be honest and say that the bookshelf Aperion Verus Grand speakers might be a little underpowered for your room size. They're not super efficient and they tend to compress at high output levels. I have to be honest and say that I'd lean rather strongly towards the towers in your room.

How about you get the Verus Grand towers, the center and the bookshelf surrounds, then get a ported "Plus" SVSound sub rather than the SB13. Would that work within your budget? While you might not think it, the cylinder PC12-Plus is great in terms of WAF. It takes up significantly less floor space than the box subs if you stand it upright. And being just a deep, plain, black velour, it basically disappears if you're not looking directly at it. You can "hide" it behind a potted plant or something ;) You can also lay it down on its side. There is no problem with it being on its side. If you do that, it's really easy to tuck behind a couch or along the edge of a wall where you'll barely notice it.

The ported "Plus" SVS subs have significantly more output capability in the low, below 40Hz bass than the sealed SB13-Plus. If it's all about the size, the cylinder is the way to go! I certainly still recommend getting one or three more subwoofers in the future when the budget allows! It's the best way to get even, smooth bass at all of your seats rather than just one. But for right now, I'd say to go with the tower Verus Grand speakers, given your room size and output needs. Don't worry about getting a 7 speaker setup - it's rarely ever really worth it. And get yourself a higher output sub than the SB13-Plus by going with the cylinder PC12-Plus.

That's what I would do in your shoes anyway ;)
 
F

footVOL

Audiophyte
Why SB-13

The reason I chose the SB-13 is both because of size (WAF and so i can run 2 if I want) and because I have always preferred the sound of sealed enclosures. As far as output goes, I always find it funny when people people talk about getting enough output out of bookshelves. How loud do you guys listen to stuff? Unless the wife is away if I really try to crank it, I find a very aggravated lady standing st thentopmof the stairs. Hitting -10db on my Denon is all I need and then some.

As far as efficiency, I am planning at throwing an Emotiva XPA-5 at the fronts, rears and center, I'd hope a true 250w/channel @ 6 ohms would make any quality speaker I choose sing.

Trust me when I say I do really want the towers, but my rational mind says I wont be using the low end of them when using a sub, so a pair of subs and bookshelves seem more logical.

I do appreciate all the great feedback, and it seems like their are split opinions with all of you, just like I am split. I guess I could just use a Magic 8 ball?!?
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Oops - I misread that sub model. :eek: I thought it was the Ultra - I guess my brain was too distracted by Cake Boss. The cakes look so tasty...
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
A note about the Aperion sensitivity and output. My NHTs are rated at 85dB versus the Aperion Grand bookshelf rating of 87dB. I can drive my NHTs a lot louder than I like and typically listen to material in the -40 to -50dB range on my Pioneer. Yeah, I know, I'm a disgrace. :) But, sounds like the OP doesn't max out his Denon, so he should be good.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
I am going to have to agree with FirstReflection on the sub choice, but for different reasons.

The main reason is that you say 80%HT. Ported subs are superior for action movies. IMO

My personal preference is sealed, but I am 98% music/concert dvd. Port noise irritates the hell out of me, and ported subs are less accurate for critical listening. IMO
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Heh - the old "sealed sub vs. ported sub sound" raises its head again, eh? :p

It's a misconception, I have to say. There ARE some very broad, general characteristics of "sealed vs. ported". But it really can't be simplified with accuracy to that extent. There are sealed subs that play lower and louder than some ported subs. There are ported subs that play "tighter" and "more musically" than some sealed subs. If you take the exact same driver, the exact same amp, don't apply any filters to them and put them in two different boxes - one sealed and one ported - then yeah, you can draw some general conclusions about how they'll sound different. But as soon as you change any of the variables other than just the box and whether or not it has a hole in it, those general conclusions go out the window and you're really just back to whether the sub is "good" or not. And by "good" I mean that it has deep extension, sufficient output at ALL frequencies for your environment, tight transient response, linear power response (so that the relative frequency response doesn't change when you increase the volume), and just straight up accuracy and precision. Whether you get there by being sealed or ported really doesn't matter.

The one absolute fact that does remain though is that a sealed sub has to create all of its output using the driver alone, whereas a ported (or passive radiator) sub gets to reinforce the output of the driver with the output of the port or passive radiator(s). Again, you can totally equal the same low bass output with a sealed design - subs like the JL Audio Fathom or the Velodyne DD-Plus subs prove that much. But you do tend to need a bigger driver - or one with absolutely massive excursion - and exponentially more amplifier power. And typically, that's going to get you a higher cost - again, the JL Audio Fathom subs and the Velodyne DD-Plus subs demonstrate that part too!

So when it comes to sheer output, when it comes to extension, and when it comes to linear power response where the relative frequency response doesn't change as the volume gets turned up, ported subs are more efficient is all. So now, the real question becomes whether they can have that port and retain the tight transient response and minimal decay and resonance that are hallmarks of the "sealed sub sound". When you say that you prefer the sound of sealed subs, that's really what you're saying. That you prefer tight transient response and minimal decay. You basically like delineation in your bass notes and for the sound to "start and stop on a dime" as it were ;)

A ported sub can do that just as well as a sealed sub. It's only around its port tuning frequency that you simply cannot avoid some resonance and increased decay times - that's how the port functions, after all! But when the port tuning is way down at 20Hz, that increase in group delay and the decay of the note really isn't a big deal what-so-ever. A sealed sub is going to be working like crazy to produce loud output way down there, which very likely means high distortion anyway. So pick your poison - a bit of increased decay time, or high distortion? :p

But above the port tuning, it all boils down to having rock steady control over that driver. A sealed sub has the mechanical advantage of a trapped volume of air that basically acts as a dampener for the driver's movement. The driver can't "ring" because when it's being pushed out by the amp, the trapped volume of air is "sucking" it back in. And when the driver's being pulled in by the amp, the air is "pushing" it back out. That's what helps create the tight transient response that sealed subs are known for. But if you have excellent control over the driver's movement in a ported box, you still get the tight transient respones and minimal "ringing" of the driver. It's just that it's all up to the amplifier to exert that control over the driver now - and for the driver to be good enough that it will respond to that control.

Bottom line is that when you say you like the "sealed sub sound", what you really mean is that you just don't like overhang or any sort of "flabby" sound to your bass. That's great! That's the sort of sound that I prefer too! And I'll give up extension and sheer output to get it if I have to. But happily, these days, I don't have to. And neither do you! :D

I'd highly recommend that you give SVSound a call and talk with them on the phone. I suspect that they'll recommend a ported "Plus" sub to you as well, based on your room size. They put up quite a lot of hype on their website, but they're actually very conservative about their subs when you talk with them on the phone. They take rather meticulous measurements of their subs and they don't overstate what sort of output they honestly have. So I'd highly recommend talking with them because they really do offer very honest advice about which of their subs is best suited to your room and setup :)

As for the speakers, I'm a "large bookshelf" fan myself. I don't like that most towers are designed mostly to get deeper bass extension, rather than aiming for maximum output without worrying about trying to produce deeper bass. It bugged me a lot that Gene tried to get EMP/RBH to extend the bass depth of the E55Ti EMP towers when EMP/RBH did what I consider to be the RIGHT thing and originally rolled them off higher than one might think, but allowed the speaker to play louder for it!

Anywho, my recommendation for the Verus Grand towers over the VG bookshelf speakers is because those bookshelf speakers honestly just can't play as loud as you might need in your room size. They compress when you turn them up. They might very well be perfectly adequate for your volume tastes. I do listen at reference volumes, so I listen LOUD. But all the same, I'd much rather be "safe" than "sorry". Of course, you could easily just order one pair of VG bookshelf speakers and the center and try them out. If they're up to the task, order another pair of bookshelves for the surrounds. If they're not, you can order the towers and move the bookshelves to surround duty. Simple! And you're not out a penny or even much of a hassle :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
How did you reply to that in 1m?:eek:
THAT...is most definitely some sort of clock error :p

I might be used to typing long posts, but I ain't THAT fast at it! lol
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I might be used to typing long posts, but I ain't THAT fast at it! lol
Oh, come now. We all know that you've just got these pre-made posts that are like Mad Libs where you fill in the speaker/sub brands being discussed. :p

J/K! :D
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I honestly SHOULD have pre-typed segments. I repeat myself so darned often :p I guess that's why I always get a "thanks" from someone when I say something that isn't a part of my usual repertoire!

:D
 
F

footVOL

Audiophyte
Great input.

Thanks guys, you guys are definelty following my same train of thoughts and the things I am wrestling with. I should have mentioned I had already ordered the Verus Grand Bookshelfs (VGB) and Center (VGC) to audition prior to posting, just waiting for them to come in. I'm just anal and already planning (and saving) for phase 2.

The wife and I had a sit down before Christman and she had begrudgingly agreed to allowing the towers, but once we started negotiating I know bookshelves are her preference, so I sold her on I'd need 2 subs if "we" went the bookshelf direction.

At this point I guess getting the first phase up and running is the most prudent course of action, then I'll have a more personal frame of reference. Also patience is not one of my better virtues, so if I go all bookshelves I could swing another pair right now and be at 5.1 with all VGBs, then I could add the second SVS and sides in another couple of months and be "done".

I should have my VGBs and VGC in the next week or so. Will post a "review" and decision at that time.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
The good thing is that you will be able to decide if the books will work up front.

I would go on and get your sub before you order your mains. This will ensure weather or not the books will work up front.

Even with the positive review, I don't expect much from a 5" driver.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
The reason I chose the SB-13 is both because of size (WAF and so i can run 2 if I want) and because I have always preferred the sound of sealed enclosures. As far as output goes, I always find it funny when people people talk about getting enough output out of bookshelves. How loud do you guys listen to stuff? Unless the wife is away if I really try to crank it, I find a very aggravated lady standing st thentopmof the stairs. Hitting -10db on my Denon is all I need and then some.

As far as efficiency, I am planning at throwing an Emotiva XPA-5 at the fronts, rears and center, I'd hope a true 250w/channel @ 6 ohms would make any quality speaker I choose sing.

Trust me when I say I do really want the towers, but my rational mind says I wont be using the low end of them when using a sub, so a pair of subs and bookshelves seem more logical.

I do appreciate all the great feedback, and it seems like their are split opinions with all of you, just like I am split. I guess I could just use a Magic 8 ball?!?
The guys who say 87-90 dB speaker aren't efficient enough are the ones who listening extremely loud or the guys that are HT buffs and listen at reference levels. No offense to them, but a speaker of that sensitivity rating gets plenty loud, so don't listen to someone who says that. With that said, a bookshelf will struggle when compared to it's counterpart floor stander in a larger room. It's physics. Also, if you listen to music at stupid loud levels or watch movies at reference levels then something like the Aperions won't cut it, and a manufacturer such as Seaton, JTR, Klipsch, eD or CHT would be better suited. Now, your room is large, so since you've already ordered the bookshelf speakers you're going to find out real fast if they are capable that room. I hope they are and hope you really enjoy them.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
The guys who say 87-90 dB speaker aren't efficient enough are the ones who listening extremely loud or the guys that are HT buffs and listen at reference levels.
Well, I'll say one thing. I was standing around in the airport the other day listening to a quintet of violinists playing their violins, musta been about 20 feet away, and damn was it loud. A good bit louder than I choose to listen most of the time. I wouldn't be surprised if there were peaks near 110db @ 10 ft (i didn't get that close) but i'm only guessing. I think most of us are used to listening less loud for various reasons (domestic issues, early arriving reflections, and our instinct to turn it down when the speakers strain)

Nothing wrong with that, but... that quintet was really damn loud. I'd love it if i could get that kind of SPL for music listening in home. But when we turn it up that much in home, our instincts tell us to turn it down. Probably worried about complaints from the family, but i'd imagine the limits of our speakers and amps factor in somewhere or other. I'm not sure 90db sensitivity is enough. Well, in a few months time i'll listen to the SEOS project and i'll let you know if i listen any louder with acoustic elegance 97db sensitive woofer :D
 
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