Turntables

[WmAx]

The tone arms on Project Xpression II and III are carbon graphite and not squished aluminum as you say. From your arguements, I'd say your a direct drive kinda guy that doesn't like belt drives.

Then in that single aspect, the Project ones would differ from 'typical', as I specified.

As for not liking belt drives - I only own one turn table right now, and it is a belt drive(Marantz TT-15S1). But the entry level tables just do not compare to the engineering in a Technics SL1200 for the same cost. If one was going to spend $500, I think they would be best served to get the Technics 1200MK2 before any of those entry level audiophile tables, that is, if the purely utilitarian cosmetics don't bother someone.

-Chris

 

[3db]

Then in that single aspect, the Project ones would differ from 'typical', as I specified.

As for not liking belt drives - I only own one turn table right now, and it is a belt drive(Marantz TT-15S1). But the entry level tables just do not compare to the engineering in a Technics SL1200 for the same cost. If one was going to spend $500, I think they would be best served to get the Technics 1200MK2 before any of those entry level audiophile tables, that is, if the purely utilitarian cosmetics don't bother someone.

-Chris

Well, I was told by several people that the Xpression II comes very close to the old Rega 3 turntables for about half the price. I'm very happy with mine.

 

[gus6464]

If I ever decide to upgrade my TT I will definitely be going for the Rega P3-24 with a low output MC cartridge. That TT seems to be a good sweetspot in terms of performance to price ratio.

 

[cwall99]

Don't forget your pickup...

I'm still using my old belt-drive Phillips turntable that I bought in 1981. I wish I could recall it's model number, but it still spins the disks at 33 1/3 RPM quite nicely. Even with the original belt!!!

I have to admit, though, that since I got my first CD player in the late '80s, it hasn't seen nearly as much use as it used to.

Recently, though, I did have to replace the cartridge (yes, I'd been using my old Shure M97-HE since 1981), and it made a world of difference. I think, though, that the cartridge is where most of the quality is made in a turntable as that's the place where the mechanical energy stored in the record's grooves is converted to electrical energy, and you want something in that link that will do the job nicely for you.

I'm sure that there are folks here whose tastes and budgets run into a much higher end than mine do, but I just bought the direct descendant of my old Shure cartridge on Amazon for $60 bucks (normally listed at $140): the Shure M97-XE. It did make a world of difference, though.

So, don't forget the cartridge. I think it's going to have a lot more impact on the sound you get than the machine that makes the record turn at 33 1/3 RPM.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm still using my old belt-drive Phillips turntable that I bought in 1981. I wish I could recall it's model number, but it still spins the disks at 33 1/3 RPM quite nicely. Even with the original belt!!!

I have to admit, though, that since I got my first CD player in the late '80s, it hasn't seen nearly as much use as it used to.

Recently, though, I did have to replace the cartridge (yes, I'd been using my old Shure M97-HE since 1981), and it made a world of difference. I think, though, that the cartridge is where most of the quality is made in a turntable as that's the place where the mechanical energy stored in the record's grooves is converted to electrical energy, and you want something in that link that will do the job nicely for you.

I'm sure that there are folks here whose tastes and budgets run into a much higher end than mine do, but I just bought the direct descendant of my old Shure cartridge on Amazon for $60 bucks (normally listed at $140): the Shure M97-XE. It did make a world of difference, though.

So, don't forget the cartridge. I think it's going to have a lot more impact on the sound you get than the machine that makes the record turn at 33 1/3 RPM.

Actually the arm cartridge match IS crucial. This is something current vinyl enthusiasts have a hard time understanding.

For good vinyl playback the mass of the arm as seen by the cartridge, cartridge weight and cartridge compliance need to sum to a resonance of around 10 HZ, as close to 10 Hz as possible. That means a high compliance cartridge like the Shure needs a low mass arm.

The currently fashionable moving coils tend to low compliance. That is why the mass of the high end arms has increased of late. Personally I think high, compliance and good trackability at reasonable tracking forces, trumps any perceived benefit of moving coils. That is why if you want a high compliance cartridge like the Shure, I think the old SME series III arm is a good as it gets.

Here is quite a good review on this topic.

 

[footman]

vinyl

I've never stopped spinning vinyl. I use two tables, Technics SL-1300 and a Yamaha P-450, both using a Grado Green Cartridge. New tables may be nice but in my opinion they are not worth the effort or the money. My vinyl collection spans 45 years and over 5000 discs. I listen from high rez to mp3 and each format has its positives and negatives.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've never stopped spinning vinyl. I use two tables, Technics SL-1300 and a Yamaha P-450, both using a Grado Green Cartridge. New tables may be nice but in my opinion they are not worth the effort or the money. My vinyl collection spans 45 years and over 5000 discs. I listen from high rez to mp3 and each format has its positives and negatives.

Actually I'm very much in favor of using vintage gear for playing vinyl and shellac 78s for that matter. My turntables are fifty years old! I have had them since my teens. The arms have been changed over the years. Although the turntable I use for 78s with the Decca ffss heads and arm is if that period and has been with me as long. In fact that Garrard 301, Decca ffss arm with LP and 78 heads complete with Decca lift and brush, is a VERY rare complete set. I hardly dare to think what it would fetch on eBay. I guess one day my children will find out.

This is a vintage turntable I restored and added an SME series III arm.

I think using vintage gear for vinyl adds to the nostalgia and overall pleasure. Also I think achieving the best sum of the compromises was handled better by the designers of that era.

 

[cwall99]

Phono input

Chances are, if it has a phono input, complete with a grounding post, you won't need a separate phono pre-amp.

That said, you can probably drop some money on a separate phono pre-amp and get better performance than using the one in your receiver (I use mine, a Pioneer Elite VSX82TSX or some such goofy nonsense).

If you do go with a separate phono pre-amp, though, you won't want to plug it into the phono plugs on your receiver. You should use a separate input (like a CD input that still has analog RCA connectors available).

 

[TLS Guy]

Chances are, if it has a phono input, complete with a grounding post, you won't need a separate phono pre-amp.

That said, you can probably drop some money on a separate phono pre-amp and get better performance than using the one in your receiver (I use mine, a Pioneer Elite VSX82TSX or some such goofy nonsense).

If you do go with a separate phono pre-amp, though, you won't want to plug it into the phono plugs on your receiver. You should use a separate input (like a CD input that still has analog RCA connectors available).

The OPs phono input is line level without RIAA EQ. I checked. It is intended for turntables with built in preamp. You may well need one too. Modern receivers do not provide the crucial RIAA EQ and correct gain for a phono cartridge. If you are having to turn the volume way up and the sound is bright and thin, you need a preamp as well.

 

[WmAx]

The OPs phono input is line level without RIAA EQ. I checked. It is intended for turntables with built in preamp. You may well need one too. Modern receivers do not provide the crucial RIAA EQ and correct gain for a phono cartridge. If you are having to turn the volume way up and the sound is bright and thin, you need a preamp as well.

Some modern units have proper phono inputs. The Yamaha RX-V2600(and I presume the later incarnations?), for example, has a proper gain level input for MM cartridges and an RIAA EQ stage.

-Chris

 

[DD66000]

I think using vintage gear for vinyl adds to the nostalgia and overall pleasure. Also I think achieving the best sum of the compromises was handled better by the designers of that era.

I agree with that, all the way. I'm still using a Yamaha direct drive TT from '78, connected to a Citation Eleven pre-amp and Citation 19 power amp, both from the late '70's. I just had the Eleven tuned up, they replaced all the caps.

I've looked at alot of much more expensive belt drive tables, like VPI, Regal, Clear Audio. But w/o being able to go into a stereo shop and listen to them, I don't really know how much of the stuff one reads, is just hype. Which is why I keep putting off buying a $2500~3500 TT.
I've came to that price range by adding inflation to the $400 Yamaha and get $1300~1600 in today's dollars. So no use buying a TT just to get a newer one, unless its an upgrade. So, I figure at least $2500.

 

[TLS Guy]

Some modern units have proper phono inputs. The Yamaha RX-V2600(and I presume the later incarnations?), for example, has a proper gain level input for MM cartridges and an RIAA EQ stage.

-Chris

I wonder if more will. There seems a huge interest in vinyl, especially among the pop and rock crowd. I think I have figured it out. The dynamic range of other than classical CDs is now non existent I hear. This is not true of classical CDs at all. However if you pin the meter and compress the dynamic range to extinction, then you have a very short playing time on LP. You need those low amplitude quiet passages for smaller groves to get a decent playing time.

This explains why people are finding a bigger dynamic range on the LP pressing I believe.

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree with that, all the way. I'm still using a Yamaha direct drive TT from '78, connected to a Citation Eleven pre-amp and Citation 19 power amp, both from the late '70's. I just had the Eleven tuned up, they replaced all the caps.

I've looked at alot of much more expensive belt drive tables, like VPI, Regal, Clear Audio. But w/o being able to go into a stereo shop and listen to them, I don't really know how much of the stuff one reads, is just hype. Which is why I keep putting off buying a $2500~3500 TT.
I've came to that price range by adding inflation to the $400 Yamaha and get $1300~1600 in today's dollars. So no use buying a TT just to get a newer one, unless its an upgrade. So, I figure at least $2500.

You can pay that much or more for a good vintage rig on eBay.

This 55 year old turntable just sold on eBay for $4500! Then you have to add a decent arm and cartridge, as he one on it is before the stereo era and is a crystal cartridge.

The bidding starts at $450 for this SME arm

Buy it now price for this SME arm is $2449.99

So there you could have a $5000 turntable before you but the cartridge.

 

[WmAx]

I agree with that, all the way. I'm still using a Yamaha direct drive TT from '78, connected to a Citation Eleven pre-amp and Citation 19 power amp, both from the late '70's. I just had the Eleven tuned up, they replaced all the caps.

I've looked at alot of much more expensive belt drive tables, like VPI, Regal, Clear Audio. But w/o being able to go into a stereo shop and listen to them, I don't really know how much of the stuff one reads, is just hype. Which is why I keep putting off buying a $2500~3500 TT.
I've came to that price range by adding inflation to the $400 Yamaha and get $1300~1600 in today's dollars. So no use buying a TT just to get a newer one, unless its an upgrade. So, I figure at least $2500.

For $1500-$2000, with the better value units, you get superb engineered turn tables with superb arms. The VPI Scout and Marantz TT-15SI are two examples of superbly built/engineered units in this range. The Marantz is a real package bargain, and is actually made by ClearAudio. The Marantz TT-15S1 uses a precision German made ClearAudio Satisfy tone arm with Swiss jeweled bearings; this arm costs $1200.00 USD by itself, and in addition, the unit comes with a ClearAudio Virtuoso cartridge that is nearly universally considered to be a superb unit - and this cart costs $875 by itself. Then the table: a solid, extreme low resonance table with a superb low friction bearing. The motor is completely isolated from the table on this unit. The table and platter are closest to the ClearAudio Champion table so far as material types and thickness of these materials. However, the Marantz comes with the superior arm as used on the upper level Champion Magnum and Avante Garde tables. I checked around, and this same arm is used on several turn tables in the $5000-$7000 range, whatever that means. The motor appears to be the one from the ClearAudio Emotion and is specified as wow and flutter of 0.07% RMS. Anyways, the Marantz is the table I ended up with - and I could not be happier with the unit's build quality. Every part of this table, from the platter to table chassis to tone arm, to the solid large diameter aluminum feet, appears to be precision machined. As such, it has the appearance and detail of a watch, or piece of jewelry, even under close inspection. The only part on this table that was not machined that I noticed, was the motor housing, which appears to be a casting. Most of the system was made in Germany, except the motor, which I believe was made in Switzerland or Sweden(I opened up the motor case and this was indicated inside). Also, according to the ClearAudio, the jewel bearings in the tone arm are Swiss.

I really doubt you can get much more performance than is possible from these tables in the VPI Scout/Marantz TT15S1 quality range. I think at this point, it comes down the cartridge/stylus(and related physical compatibility of the cartridge-arm system), as far as dictating the sound you get. Due to the extreme low noise of this caliber table(80 dB and greater SNR of rumble, unweighted) and good speed stability, along with what appear to be perfect tracking arms with no significant resonance, I really don't see what is to be audibly improved on the tables themselves beyond this point. It may even be these are in excess of what is required for transparent table/tone arm functionality?

-Chris

 

[TLS Guy]

Anyways, the Marantz is the table I ended up with - and I could not be happier with the unit's build quality. Every part of this table, from the platter to table chassis to tone arm, to the solid large diameter aluminum feet, appears to be precision machined. As such, it has the appearance and detail of a watch, or piece of jewelry, even under close inspection.

-Chris

Interesting your comments about the jewelers.

Garrard were the Crown jewelers! The directors wanted nice units for themselves, so started making turntables in the pre electric era.

In the fifties they got into the high end transcription turntable business, with the 301. In fact I think you have to say, it was the first high precision turntable, and rapidly gained favor not only with audio enthusiasts but the professional users also. The production of these was subsidized by the profits from the mass market auto changers.

Records have shown that the company never made a profit on the 301 or the 401 that succeeded it. That came as a surprise as many units were sold world wide, especially of the 301.

Garrard turntables did not survive the Far Eastern invasion of the 1970s and Garrard were bought by Gradiente Brazil, who produced garbage.

Anyhow the legend lives on. Loricraft, who are located close to the old Garrard works in Swindon Wiltshire, obtained the rights to the Garrard name a few years ago.

Now in addition to fully refurbishing the 301 and 401, they manufacture the Garrard 501.

An interesting footnote, Garrard, the crown jewelers, recently got into financial difficulty also and were bought by an American firm.

 

[DD66000]

For $1500-$2000, with the better value units, you get superb engineered turn tables with superb arms. The VPI Scout and Marantz TT-15SI are two examples of superbly built/engineered units in this range. The Marantz is a real package bargain, and is actually made by ClearAudio. The Marantz TT-15S1 uses a precision German made ClearAudio Satisfy tone arm with Swiss jeweled bearings; this arm costs $1200.00 USD by itself, and in addition, the unit comes with a ClearAudio Virtuoso cartridge that is nearly universally considered to be a superb unit - and this cart costs $875 by itself.

I've never looked at the Marantz, I'll have to take a look. If I were to go the VPI route, I was looking more toward the Scoutmaster, which as a better tonearm than the Scout. I also was leaning toward the Virtuoso cartridge.

I was reading a review, on this site, on a Marantz receiver and it mentioned that Marantz is now considered low end compared to Denon. For TTs that is obviously reversed, as Marantz has the better TTs of the two.

There seems to be many more TT companies today than 30 years ago and of coarse the cd came on board since. About 20 years ago I went from store to store, in Reno, looking for a replacement stylus for my Shure V15 tyoe 5 cartridge. I was told, time and again, "we only sell cds now."
Along comes the internet and wham no shortages of tt or cartridges.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've never looked at the Marantz, I'll have to take a look. If I were to go the VPI route, I was looking more toward the Scoutmaster, which as a better tonearm than the Scout. I also was leaning toward the Virtuoso cartridge.

I was reading a review, on this site, on a Marantz receiver and it mentioned that Marantz is now considered low end compared to Denon. For TTs that is obviously reversed, as Marantz has the better TTs of the two.

There seems to be many more TT companies today than 30 years ago and of coarse the cd came on board since. About 20 years ago I went from store to store, in Reno, looking for a replacement stylus for my Shure V15 tyoe 5 cartridge. I was told, time and again, "we only sell cds now."
Along comes the internet and wham no shortages of tt or cartridges.

Yes, it is strange isn't it, the explosion of TT companies? I think there must be a yearning in many of us, for finely crafted and machined mechanisms, were a look at it tells you how it works, and when you handle it does have the feel of jewelry. I think the fact that Garrard, were the Crown Jewelers is highly significant.

 

[WmAx]

I've never looked at the Marantz, I'll have to take a look. If I were to go the VPI route, I was looking more toward the Scoutmaster, which as a better tonearm than the Scout. I also was leaning toward the Virtuoso cartridge.

I was reading a review, on this site, on a Marantz receiver and it mentioned that Marantz is now considered low end compared to Denon. For TTs that is obviously reversed, as Marantz has the better TTs of the two.

There seems to be many more TT companies today than 30 years ago and of coarse the cd came on board since. About 20 years ago I went from store to store, in Reno, looking for a replacement stylus for my Shure V15 tyoe 5 cartridge. I was told, time and again, "we only sell cds now."
Along comes the internet and wham no shortages of tt or cartridges.

I don't think there is any validity in trying to compare company 'reputations' here. The Marantz TT is from their high end product line, which is completely different level of build quality as compared to their regular home A/V gear. Also, Marantz did not even make the TT, it is made by ClearAudio, a German company highly experienced in producing/designing high end mechanical turn table systems and tone arms.

-Chris

 

[Geno]

I bought a Music Hall MMF5.1 a couple of years ago after reading a million reviews on TTs in that price range, thinking that $650 was about all I wanted to spend. I have better than 400 LPs that I had collected over the years, but had relegated to dead storage when CDs took over. I'm pretty happy with it - it's a nicely made unit, sounds substantially better than the old Technics I had before, and looks pretty cool, too. I wince at the prices of some of the more esoteric stuff out there, and wonder what kind of folks would spend upwards of 50K to play LPs.
I still think a well-recorded multi=channel SACD or DVD-A is a superior experience to LPs, but I still enjoy the vinyl experience.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

 

[TLS Guy]

I bought a Music Hall MMF5.1 a couple of years ago after reading a million reviews on TTs in that price range, thinking that $650 was about all I wanted to spend. I have better than 400 LPs that I had collected over the years, but had relegated to dead storage when CDs took over. I'm pretty happy with it - it's a nicely made unit, sounds substantially better than the old Technics I had before, and looks pretty cool, too. I wince at the prices of some of the more esoteric stuff out there, and wonder what kind of folks would spend upwards of 50K to play LPs.
I still think a well-recorded multi=channel SACD or DVD-A is a superior experience to LPs, but I still enjoy the vinyl experience.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

You are not wrong. However most of it is not snake oil. In a mechanical analog system careful design skill and craftsmanship make ALL the difference. So as you go up the food chain so to speak, the benefits are much grater than with PCM based digital systems. May be this is another attraction. However I do believe there is a law of diminishing returns, and the cost benefit ratio is log and not linear.