Turntable Advice for Newbie

[BMEJ]

Hi,
My first day here and I tried a search for this topic, but I can't seem to find the right answer.

With the resurgence of vinyl in my area, I am looking to add a turntable to my home theatre system.

First question - What type of turntable should I buy (make/model)?

Second - do you guys normally run your turntable through your home theatre receiver and front speakers, or is it best to have a dedicated system for CD's and LP's?

Thirdly - All I will require is a left and right audio cable to go to the Phono input of my receiver?

Currently I have a Sony STR DA555-ES receiver, B&W CDM 1SE fronts and a Velodyne CHT-12 sub.

Thanks in advance

 

[MidnightSensi]

The best turntable is the Technics 1200 (or 1210, which is black, the 1200 is silver, but they are the same otherwise). It's had more design work put into it than any other turntable out there.

You can connect the turntable to your phono input, also you'll connect the turntables ground to the chassis (it's a thin cable that runs off the deck).

You don't need a seperate system for listening to vinyl.

 

[3db]

There are 2 schools of thought on 2 channel listening. One thought is that you should run an entire seperate setup for 2 channel because either or botth the speakers and the amps used in Home Theater (HT) don't resolve enough detail.

I'm in the 2nd camp that says BS to the above with a caveat. When I auditioned for speakers, I auditioned exclusively on 2 channel music and the speakers I chose are very very musical. They also happen to be a great speaker for HT providing good slam and dynamics.

My receiver serves as both my 2 channel and my HT rig. I don't have the funds for both. The sound is very resolving with either 2 channel or HT and I'm very happy with what I have.

The only thing a seperate 2 channel rig could give you is the ability to use it whenever you want as opposed to having to share the use with the HT side of things.

If you have a phono stage on your receiver, then you should be able to plug the output of the turntable directly to the phono inputs.

As far as turntables go, this is the one piece of audio gear that is relatively expensive, where the law of diminishing return is at a higher price point relative to that of AVR, CD or DVD players etc.

There are 2 camps on turntables; direct drive where the motor is directl coupled to the platter or belt drive where the motor turns the platter via a belt. Both have pro's and cons and to say one is better than the other is like saying apples and oranges are the same.

As an exmaple. the previous poster mentioned the Technics as the best turntable out there. Its a good table, direct drive, very small speed deviation, built like a tank buts it tone arm sucks. I have ProJect Xpression II which is a belt drive. Its not constructed nealry as rugged as the Technics. I don't need the ruggedness of the Technics as I'm carefull with my audio equipment anyway and its not been moved since I installed it into my system. The speed deviation is higher than the Techics but still remains inaudable. I cannot detect it even when I try to listen for it. The tonearm I have is a real gem, tracks very well and is far superior in that of the Technics.

My recommendation is go out and audition turntables from companies such as ProJect, Rega, Music Hall, Marantz. Stay away from the modern Sonys, Yamaha, Pioneer, Kenwood, Denon, ION, and others as they are cheaply made and built. The older 70s vintage Sony, Denon, Marantz, Dual etc are good tables but will require some sort of maintenance unless the original owner has maintained them.

I hope this has helped you some

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I was under the impression that the AVID Acutus Reference was a tad better than the Technics 1200. However, if one didn't want to spring for the 24k plus a tonearm, I would look at the PRO-JECT which you can get into for $350 or a REGA starting around $400.

The best turntable is the Technics 1200 (or 1210, which is black, the 1200 is silver, but they are the same otherwise). It's had more design work put into it than any other turntable out there.

.

 

[WmAx]

The SL-1200MKII or variants are the best entry level tables you can purchase. You can easily turn this 'entry level' table into a superb groove tracer by changing out the tone arm later on as an upgrade. The table has far higher build quality, far better motor and speed accuracy as compared to anything else near it's price range, new. The tone arm is not 'terrible', it's just not great. The tone arm has too many flexible joints along with a resonant tube structure, resulting in coloration to the signal. But it's not a 'huge' coloration, and it probably would not even be noticed by you unless you did some sort of controlled direct A/B listening comparison. The Technics could easily last you a lifetime if maintained properly. Please be sure to pick a high quality cartridge. There are two options that I recommend: Audio Technica AT440 ML and Denon DL-110. Both are exemplary for the price ranges involved. Far above the rest, basically. Both are fantastic trackers that can easily track just about any record with ease and both lack inner groove distortion(a problem with many cartridges). The difference between these two is their frequency responses. Based on 3rd party analysis, the AT440 has a slight rise in the treble range; this is not usually desirable. The Denon is inverse; it has a slight attenuation in the treble. This will tend to sound more natural on most recordings. If you listen to acoustic, jazz and classical, the Denon would be a better choice. If you listen to mostly rock or pop or related music, then the AT would probably be preferred. Both have a dead flat mid-range.

-Chris

 

[Geno]

If you want to see the range of TTs available, go to the Needle Doctor website. They have 'tables costing from $150 to $150,000 and everyting in between. Kind of overkill, IMHO, but you'll get a good idea of what's out there. I think there's probably more nuttiness in the vinyl camp than you'll find in most other areas of this hobby, but you can get a perfectly decent setup for around $300 or so. Those Technics 'tables are a tried & true choice, although the high-end wackos would turn their noses up at such pedestrian stuff. You may find, like me, that vinyl is OK, but CDs are much more convenient in real life.

Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

 

[3db]

The SL-1200MKII or variants are the best entry level tables you can purchase. You can easily turn this 'entry level' table into a superb groove tracer by changing out the tone arm later on as an upgrade. The table has far higher build quality, far better motor and speed accuracy as compared to anything else near it's price range, new. The tone arm is not 'terrible', it's just not great. The tone arm has too many flexible joints along with a resonant tube structure, resulting in coloration to the signal. But it's not a 'huge' coloration, and it probably would not even be noticed by you unless you did some sort of controlled direct A/B listening comparison. The Technics could easily last you a lifetime if maintained properly. Please be sure to pick a high quality cartridge. There are two options that I recommend: Audio Technica AT440 ML and Denon DL-110. Both are exemplary for the price ranges involved. Far above the rest, basically. Both are fantastic trackers that can easily track just about any record with ease and both lack inner groove distortion(a problem with many cartridges). The difference between these two is their frequency responses. Based on 3rd party analysis, the AT440 has a slight rise in the treble range; this is not usually desirable. The Denon is inverse; it has a slight attenuation in the treble. This will tend to sound more natural on most recordings. If you listen to acoustic, jazz and classical, the Denon would be a better choice. If you listen to mostly rock or pop or related music, then the AT would probably be preferred. Both have a dead flat mid-range.

-Chris

Thetone arm on the Project Xpression II and III is a vastly superior to the Technics.. That is the SL1200 only weakness.

One thing that puzzles me is why its so important that this table is built liek a Sherman tank. Who goes around throwing around their TT where you need that kind of ruggedness? My ProJect isn't nearly as rugged but it will last me a life time because I look after my equipment. I don't understand. Also if the wow and flutter is only measurable but in audable, what does it matter?

 

[yettitheman]

One thing that puzzles me is why its so important that this table is built liek a Sherman tank.

It's identical in respect to having a large amplifier for speakers; you may not ever need all that power, but at least you have it.

Build quality wise for the 1200; yeah, most audio heads aren't going to run rare records backwards on a $1500 Grado cartridge. But, the way it's built lends itself to having a purposeful life, as well as a reputation that if it can take that kind of abuse and still work, imagine what it can do as a record player that just spins the right way!

So... yes. I'll take the tank over anything else, because a tank will always squash a car.

 

[WmAx]

Thetone arm on the Project Xpression II and III is a vastly superior to the Technics.. That is the SL1200 only weakness.

One thing that puzzles me is why its so important that this table is built liek a Sherman tank. Who goes around throwing around their TT where you need that kind of ruggedness? My ProJect isn't nearly as rugged but it will last me a life time because I look after my equipment. I don't understand. Also if the wow and flutter is only measurable but in audable, what does it matter?

It's that the SL1200MKII's base is superior in every way to any similarly priced competing product. The base/table/motor is the most important part you start with. You can easily change out the arm, and cheaply if you catch a deal on eBay on the part you need. The SL1200MKII base is heavy cast aluminum, with a massive rubber dampening block underneath, resulting in a very well dampened/inert chassis, compared to most. It is very stiff/strong, obviously. The platter is about 5lbs and made of cast and then machined aluminum - very considerable - and it is double layer dampened to be very low in resonance. It's motor and speed controller are 1st rate - superior to most TTs regardless of cost. Build quality is 1st rate all the way around.

Compare this SL1200 to the otherwise standard construction you get for the SAME price from other companies: MDF or similar 3/4" piece of board painted or laminated, and a low quality motor with barely sufficient speed stability, and many at this price level receive criticisms for having subtle audible pitch variance on certain hyper pitch sensitive music such as piano solos.

If one watched eBay or a while, they may even find a superb tone arm for around 100 dollars. A friend of mine recently got such a deal and will use it on his Technics table.

-Chris

 

[3db]

It's that the SL1200MKII's base is superior in every way to any similarly priced competing product. The base/table/motor is the most important part you start with. You can easily change out the arm, and cheaply if you catch a deal on eBay on the part you need. The SL1200MKII base is heavy cast aluminum, with a massive rubber dampening block underneath, resulting in a very well dampened/inert chassis, compared to most. It is very stiff/strong, obviously. The platter is about 5lbs and made of cast and then machined aluminum - very considerable - and it is double layer dampened to be very low in resonance. It's motor and speed controller are 1st rate - superior to most TTs regardless of cost. Build quality is 1st rate all the way around.

Compare this SL1200 to the otherwise standard construction you get for the SAME price from other companies: MDF or similar 3/4" piece of board painted or laminated, and a low quality motor with barely sufficient speed stability, and many at this price level receive criticisms for having subtle audible pitch variance on certain hyper pitch sensitive music such as piano solos.

If one watched eBay or a while, they may even find a superb tone arm for around 100 dollars. A friend of mine recently got such a deal and will use it on his Technics table.

-Chris

You told me why the Technics is good but that does not address the questions I have. Like I said before, if the speed deviations are inaudable, does it really matter and if yoru careful with your equipment, does it really matter if its built like a tank?

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/xpression2.htm

As you can see, I have a 5lb platter as well and I suspect the rotational mass of this platter keeps the speed more or less constant.

 

[BMEJ]

Thanks to all that participated in this thread.

Looks like I have to decide between Technics and Project and if I go with Technics, I should replace the tone arm.

Another question, how long does a needle last? Is it a maintenance item that should be replaced after so many hours?

thanks again to all, your opinions were informative and well advised.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks to all that participated in this thread.

Looks like I have to decide between Technics and Project and if I go with Technics, I should replace the tone arm.

Another question, how long does a needle last? Is it a maintenance item that should be replaced after so many hours?

thanks again to all, your opinions were informative and well advised.

That is a hard question to answer. In general more expensive cartridges have harder diamonds. Correctly setting a turn table up for correct tracking angle, minimizing tracking error, correct bias adjustment and finding the optimal tracking force for the cartridge all help prolong stylus life.

In general a stylus should have a life of playing about 2000 LPs. depending on the above factors, it could last a significantly shorter or longer time.

It is hard to find places that will check styli for ware now. The problem is that by the time the problem is audibly apparent you are already ruining LPs.

I have my own operating microscope for inspection. Problem is you have to know what to look for.

When considering turntables don't forget vintage ones. A Thorens turntable with an SME pickup arm will be a superb performer for instance.

 

[skizzerflake]

....
Second - do you guys normally run your turntable through your home theatre receiver and front speakers, or is it best to have a dedicated system for CD's and LP's?

Thirdly - All I will require is a left and right audio cable to go to the Phono input of my receiver?

Currently I have a Sony STR DA555-ES receiver, B&W CDM 1SE fronts and a Velodyne CHT-12 sub.

Thanks in advance

I have a dedicated all-analog vinyl system but I have to admit that, aside from the realm of seriously expensive high-end stuff, the speakers will make the single largest difference in sound, so if your receiver has an analog pure stereo mode, it should suffice for vinyl sound. As long as your receiver has a phono input (some don't), all you need is a pair of RCA cables; the technology is simple. The B&W/Velodyne combo should sound quite nice.

If you want to take the next step, you can sometimes find good used gear on Ebay. I had an orphaned pair of Vandersteens in need of a reason for life after I migrated to an HT system. For less than $200 per component, I added a vintage Dual turntable, NAD stereo preamp and a Carver 400WPC amp. This was a real kick-*** analog system for a net cost of under $600 until it got hit by lightning.

 

[3db]

Thanks to all that participated in this thread.

Looks like I have to decide between Technics and Project and if I go with Technics, I should replace the tone arm.

Another question, how long does a needle last? Is it a maintenance item that should be replaced after so many hours?

thanks again to all, your opinions were informative and well advised.

No no no..don't decide between those 2..listen and audition turntables if you can..with an LP that hopefully you know well and then decide. This will be a very difficult chore because there are so many variables such as differing cartridges, amps/receivers, speakers, and room acoustics. Look carefully. Like I said before, there is Rega, Music Hall, ProJect, Marantz, NAD, and others to consider.

 

[20Glove]

Just bought a Pro-Ject Debut iii

Ok, just bought the Pro-ject debut iii... is this a good entry level model??? It sounds good. The salesman kept going back to this model... led me away from Denon, Marantz, Technics, and even the Pro-Ject Xpression. Kept telling me I could upgrade pretty close to the Xpression if I liked what I had.

Is that correct?? Eventually could I change the cartridge and get the quality pretty close to the Xpression??? Or no?

Let me know what I will do if I upgrade the cartridge... what will it do for me?

thanks.

 

[3db]

Ok, just bought the Pro-ject debut iii... is this a good entry level model??? It sounds good. The salesman kept going back to this model... led me away from Denon, Marantz, Technics, and even the Pro-Ject Xpression. Kept telling me I could upgrade pretty close to the Xpression if I liked what I had.

Is that correct?? Eventually could I change the cartridge and get the quality pretty close to the Xpression??? Or no?

Let me know what I will do if I upgrade the cartridge... what will it do for me?

thanks.

It depends on your budget. I was also set to buy the Debut when I noticed the XpressionII for about $100 bucks more. I asked the dealer if it was worth the upgrade and he said most definately yes. It was a close out sale to make room for the new XpresionII that were about to come in.

The tone arm on the XpressionII (and now III) is a much better tonearm then whats found on the debut. Now unless they redesigned teh Debut which I'm not aware off, the arm on the Debut is not as adjustable as the Xpression which will limit your choice of cartridges. If you can, I would go back to the dealer and trade up to the Xpression unless of course you are very happy with what you have, If that's the case, ignore what I've just said and enjoy the music .

 

[jliedeka]

I would agree that for an entry level table, there's no need to overthink the decision. When you spend more to get a more adjustable arm, that's a good news/bad news thing. The good news is you can make more adjustments. The bad news is you'll need calibration tools to make those adjustments.

You've got a fine table. You could spend more to get more but that will always be true. My advice it to enjoy the table you have for now. You can always get something better down the road and by then you'll have a better idea what that something better is.

Jim

 

[3db]

I would agree that for an entry level table, there's no need to overthink the decision. When you spend more to get a more adjustable arm, that's a good news/bad news thing. The good news is you can make more adjustments. The bad news is you'll need calibration tools to make those adjustments.

You've got a fine table. You could spend more to get more but that will always be true. My advice it to enjoy the table you have for now. You can always get something better down the road and by then you'll have a better idea what that something better is.

Jim

Just to add to his post.. When it comes to upgrading, don't bother spending the money on tweeks to upgrade the Debut. Save your money and just flat out purchase a better table. But in the time, spin on my friend and enjoy.

 

[gus6464]

Thetone arm on the Project Xpression II and III is a vastly superior to the Technics.. That is the SL1200 only weakness.

One thing that puzzles me is why its so important that this table is built liek a Sherman tank. Who goes around throwing around their TT where you need that kind of ruggedness? My ProJect isn't nearly as rugged but it will last me a life time because I look after my equipment. I don't understand. Also if the wow and flutter is only measurable but in audable, what does it matter?

I bought my Rega Planar 2 used with the glass platter and just replaced the cartridge with an AT440MLa for $90. I absolutely love my table and it's around 10 years old.