TriTrix Build

[mattsk8]

So, after a year I've finally started to build these! My son and I had some fun making the crossovers today. My question is, I used hot glue to glue the components to the 1/4" MDF board. Is that good enough or I'm thinking maybe zipties for reinforcement? Think that's necessary?

Now I have to do the cabinets. I'm kinda thinking about cheating and just buying the cabs from parts express just to save the time; I don't really need the practice and spare time is worth more than they charge for the cabinets !

On a side note, I did get a Pioneer SX-950 receiver to drive them w/. Picked it up on ebay and haven't heard it yet; all I've done is plug it in to make sure it powered up. Exited to get it all done now!...

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Hot glue is fine. I never had an issue with it and dries much faster and has less mess than silicone.

 

[mattsk8]

So I chose these for their inexpensive appeal more than anything. I love stereos and wanted to learn to build speakers and figured these were the best way to get my feet wet.

As far as the crossovers go, what's the job of the components that make up the crossover? What's the inductor do? Whats the purpose of the capacitor? Whats the resistor? And how do you pick crossover components as they relate to the speakers you plan on using?

Thanks for any insight!

 

[j_garcia]

The components work together to perform the actual filtering of the frequencies that get to each driver. IMO, the way one "chooses" components is to build one and measure the response curve to see what different values of the components do to overall speaker response. If you look up the TriTrix on PE (or any of the featured designs) they will have a secton on design goals and that will usually talk about the characteristics that the designer was after - many of which are determined by the crossover.

I'd recommend the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. It has a lot of the info you are looking for and is written in a way that is pretty easy to understand for the complexity of the subject.

 

[GranteedEV]

As far as the crossovers go, what's the job of the components that make up the crossover? What's the inductor do? Whats the purpose of the capacitor? Whats the resistor?

The gist of it is this: Inductors and Capacitors store / release energy, while resistors convert energy into heat.

Inductors "store" electrical signals from the amplifier in the magnetic field they create. Combined with the electrical impedance behaviour at a given frequency of the circuit it is in line with, you roll off the high frequencies of the driver. A woofer and midrange driver will generally use inductors, and occasionally a tweeter might too. If there's too much inductance necessary to get the desired result, inductors may also affect the DC resistance of the loudspeaker circuit and things get tricky from there, especially if using lower distortion air core inductors rather than higher distortion cored inductors.

Capacitors store electricity in themselves. They then release part of the signal back into the circuit. This will give you a low frequency rolloff. midranges and tweeters will use capacitors. You should never test a tweeter without having a large capacitor in line with it, else you may feed it direct current and fry it.

Resistors help you balance out sensitivity. Generally you only want to use resistors on tweeters and midranges. Because you can only balance sensitivity by how the least sensitive driver behaves, the rest of the energy is basically wasted. That's one reason why active crossovers (preamplification) may be prefered to passive crossovers (post amplification). In active circuits, opamps can take the place of inductors and introduce less distortion into the mix as well.

And how do you pick crossover components as they relate to the speakers you plan on using?

There's AC circuits math involved - basically you need to understand the speakers' complex impedance (not DC resistance), sensitivity, and transfer functions (both on and off axis) and find a way to balance it out with the right value of components at the right spots.

Nowadays, like with anything else, there's computer-aided design that can help you with a lot of the process:

IE Jeff Bagby's free Passive Crossover Designer Excel Spreadsheets - http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/jbagby.html

as well as:

SPEAK - http://www.gedlee.com/speak.htm

LSPCad - http://www.ijdata.com/

Soundeasy - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=500-912

LEAP - http://www.linearx.com/products/software/LEAP5/LEAP5_01.htm

 

[mattsk8]

So I did cheat and just ordered the cabinets precut from PE. Sorry GranteedEV, I was going to build the taller ones but didn't have the ambition. I just don't think I'll be super thrilled w/ the sound, mainly wanted the experience before I invest a bunch of time and money.

My question now is, where do I mount the crossovers? I was thinking about putting them on the rear board up towards the top of the cabinet, basically they would be straight behind the top driver. That way they would be right behind the speakers and I could access them if I had a problem. Was just curious if this will obstruct the airflow negatively? Any suggestions?

Side note, the precut cabinets are pretty nice except that they predrill holes to screw the cabinets together. I'll use finish nails and titebond, not a fan of screws in MDF just because they tend to split the wood even if you predrill. Now I'll have to fill all those dumb holes.

 

[mattsk8]

Anybody? Crossover location? (Crickets chirping)

 

[j_garcia]

I think they will be fine there. In a smaller cabinet, I'd put them on the bottom, but in a large one I think that would not be too big of an issue and makes wiring a bit easier too.

 

[mattsk8]

Cabinets are assembled.
Pro's of the precut cabinets are- HUGE time saver!
Con's- I had to sand the cut edges of PC's panels because they all had a wierd lip that stuck out about 1/32". The panels also weren't very consistent dimensionally. The were straight and square and they worked where it mattered, but there was about 1/64" variation from one panel to another as far as length and width is concerned. However, w/ some hard clamping, everything seemed to come together pretty well in spite of the variations. Another big one is the predrilled holes in the cabinets are just dumb.

Also, the hollow fill cabinet stuffing that comes w/ the speaker kit is less than desirable. Kind of clumpy pieces that you have to pull apart and kind of stretch it out before you put it in. I think I'll replace it w/ pillow stuffing from a fabric store just because it's more consistent.

Another one is, after watching PE's crossover video on youtube (which was very helpful so don't misinterpret this), I would use quite a bit more hot glue than it appears the guy on the video is using. I had one of the inductors come off while I was assembling the cabinets. If (or more like when!) I build my next speakers, I'll build a chamber in the cabinet just for the crossover to make them easily accessible after the cabinets are completely finished. While I did hot glue the crap out of every component on each crossover after the inductor came loose, I fear the long term holding power of the glue; especially given the vibrations the crossovers will endure.

Last minor complaint is the kit should come w/ hardware to mount the speakers since they predrill the holes to accept their mounting hardware. Have to order that tomorrow.

Unfortunately I cant put the speakers in the cabinets till I get their hardware, that probably won't be till tuesday. Can't wait to here how they sound! If they're good, I'll start making the cherry veneer for the cabinets.

Thanks again to everyone here, you've all been a huge help! Hopefully someone that's interested in these w/ minimal experiance can read this and my other thread and learn a lot; I know I have! Thanks again !

 

[j_garcia]

Liquid Nails to attach the x-over. Not coming off anytime soon.

 

[mattsk8]

So I got the speakers installed and hooked them up to my old kenwood reciever in the garage. They sound good, but not great. I am, however, impressed at how good they sound for the money, plus it was a great learning experiance.

As far as the sound goes, they're a bit tinney. Plus I was looking for a full range speaker. While these do produce respectable bass while listening to Dire Straights or Rush (most rock n roll), they tend to loose me w/ Boom Boom Pow. Not that I listen to that too often, just saying! I do need to break them in, they're brand new speakers so maybe they'll get better w/ a bit more punishment. Based on that, does anyone have a project they would recommend? Something w/ a bit warmer highs, maybe a bit more midrange, and better bass?

Anyone have an opinion for these- http://stories.parts-express.com/stories/2444-en_us/category/Speaker/story/17029/redirect.htm

Or what about these- http://stories.parts-express.com/stories/2444-en_us/category/Speaker/story/16850/redirect.htm

Leaning towards the second link, thinking it'll sound better but that's based on nothing more than they cost more !

 

[dkane360]

does anyone have a project they would recommend?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68531&page=11

 

[skyline_123]

So I got the speakers installed and hooked them up to my old kenwood reciever in the garage. They sound good, but not great. I am, however, impressed at how good they sound for the money, plus it was a great learning experiance.

As far as the sound goes, they're a bit tinney. Plus I was looking for a full range speaker. While these do produce respectable bass while listening to Dire Straights or Rush (most rock n roll), they tend to loose me w/ Boom Boom Pow. Not that I listen to that too often, just saying! I do need to break them in, they're brand new speakers so maybe they'll get better w/ a bit more punishment. Based on that, does anyone have a project they would recommend? Something w/ a bit warmer highs, maybe a bit more midrange, and better bass?

Anyone have an opinion for these- http://stories.parts-express.com/stories/2444-en_us/category/Speaker/story/17029/redirect.htm

Or what about these- http://stories.parts-express.com/stories/2444-en_us/category/Speaker/story/16850/redirect.htm

Leaning towards the second link, thinking it'll sound better but that's based on nothing more than they cost more !

I don't think the first link you posted, The Stentorians, are going to satisfy your bass needs if the Tri Trix won't. I think the primary quality that these possess is high volume, low distortion, good midrange, and cost. Although they do have the equivalent surface area of a 15" driver, they just won't go very low.

I think Zaph's ZDT 3.5's are a better choice as far as having a warmer sound and having more bass, but by then, you're getting up there in cost similar to Dennis Murphy's ER18's, which is where I think you'll be happy. The bass is quite impressive and really doesn't need a sub if you're listening to music unless you just need to feel some serious impact. I like to think they have a sophisticated bass but truthfully, I still use my sub when watching movies because I love bass.

The ER18's also have great mid and upper range sound. I had never heard a ribbon tweeter until these and I have to say that I love them. They really bring out differences in recording qualities that I would not normally have noticed before. As Swerd described them to me, they're simply "effortless".

To me, the ER18's are an all around wonderful package. They represent an awesome bang for the buck value. But I really hate to use the term "bang for the buck" because I'm afraid it insinuates that they only sound good considering the low cost but in reality, I think they sound good considering any cost. I feel like the only way I can achieve better sound is if I max out all other variables. For example, if I had the perfect sized room with full room treatments and access to higher end amplifiers and such, then I would be able to compare these with other speakers fairly.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68531&page=11

Yeah, those guys, follow that link!

 

[mattsk8]

The last thing I'll say to you is:

Do not expect these speakers to be magical. They may not have the instant appeal you may subjectively associate with a "good speaker" Live with them for some time and try to rediscover your music and even movies. What you may initially think as lifeless you may eventually find to be truly organic. Expect these speakers to be different from what you may be currently used to. Try instead to find the nuances that aren't hidden rather than the types of things which are often thrown at you with reckless abandon but here seem tamed and under control. What you will likely initially perceive as the speaker doing uncomfortably differently will more than likely just be as close to real as the drivers' capabilities as is realistic.

And then you can move them to the rear as surrounds when you build something uber awesome for the high SPL levels!!!

That's the last post from my "Where to begin" thread that got me started here! He was completely right. I've only had these things going for a few hours now and am already beginning to fall in love! I definitely know that I want more bass though. Not a ton; just more, deeper punch and boom. I am pleased at how loud and distortion free the tritrix are! Maybe just a sub w/ them would solve my bass dilema?

After reading through that "where to begin" thread again, I've changed my mind over the coarse of a year on what I want to do. I think I'm happy w/ my home theater at this point, I now want to build an absolutely amazing pair of full range speakers for my pool room!

Skyline, you built both the Tritrix that I built and the ER18s. Can you describe the differences between the 2? Do you think the ER18s will fill the bass voids left by the tritrix? Also, you like the ER18s over the zaph zdt 3.5? Just curious why?

 

[mattsk8]

I'm not getting any sleep tonight! Just going to sit there and listen to the Police on these speakers all night long ! It's just so amazingly rewarding to sit in front of them knowing that I built em! HUGE thanks to everyone here for all the suggestions and help; I'm nothing less than completely satisfied w/ the results from these for the money I have invested. Now on to bigger, better speakers!

The only problem I see w/ all of this is that I see me bankrupt and divorced in a couple years living in an apartment w/ about 15-20 pairs of speakers I built!! I'll blame you guys for that if it ever goes down

The only thing I'll do differently as far as the cabinet design goes next time is I won't use tee nuts to hold the speakers in. I'm not a fan of the way they stick out before the speaker's installed cuz the base is so big. They make threaded nut inserts; anyone use those? Anyone even know what I'm talking about? Also, I wont use the hollow fill from PE, just use pillow stuffing instead. That clumpy garbage from PE in the one's I built can't be doing airflow any favors. Have to switch that out soon.

 

[skyline_123]

That's the last post from my "Where to begin" thread that got me started here! He was completely right. I've only had these things going for a few hours now and am already beginning to fall in love!

If you're like me, your ears are going to do that to you for a long time. It seems like it takes a long time to become familiar enough with a piece of music where you can listen to a new set of speakers and evaluate them without not liking them simply because they're different. I think that's why they say you need to to "break in" your speakers. You're really breaking in your ears.

I definitely know that I want more bass though. Not a ton; just more, deeper punch and boom. I am pleased at how loud and distortion free the tritrix are! Maybe just a sub w/ them would solve my bass dilema?

Subwoofers will solve ALL dilemmas and bring peace to the world.

Skyline, you built both the Tritrix that I built and the ER18s. Can you describe the differences between the 2? Do you think the ER18s will fill the bass voids left by the tritrix? Also, you like the ER18s over the zaph zdt 3.5? Just curious why?

How big is this room? It really depends on your expectations for bass. If you're used to using subs, they may not fill that void, otherwise, I think you'll be happy with them. As for the differences, check out this thread where I briefly described some of the differences.

The ER18's are simply a step up in all aspects. They're larger, more expensive, they go lower, better mids and highs, they're more detailed etc etc. Vocals and instruments like violins, trumpets, upright bass, etc simply sound more natural and more detailed.

But like I said in that post I linked, it's almost unfair to compare them because they're very different in price. And by no means am I putting down the tri trix in any way. I really do think they're great speakers and you really can't beat them for the price.

I can't say for sure that you'll like the ZDT 3.5's over the ER18's because I have not heard them personally. I think they'll both sound pretty warm but the ER18's, because of the enclosure, will go lower. Both Dennis Murphy and Zaph's designs are well received so I don't think you can go very wrong.

As for the dream full range speakers go, I personally was thinking of going with Zaphs ZD5's or ZRT's or Dennis Murphy's MB0W1's or CA0W1's and integrating two JL 8w7's in the bottom of each tower. Not sure when this will happen but I can dream.

 

[skyline_123]

The only thing I'll do differently as far as the cabinet design goes next time is I won't use tee nuts to hold the speakers in. I'm not a fan of the way they stick out before the speaker's installed cuz the base is so big.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Did you install the tee nuts on the inside of the speakers?

 

[mattsk8]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Did you install the tee nuts on the inside of the speakers?

Fighting the urge to be insulted that you would ask that question, but yes they're on the inside of the box . What I mean is, the tee nuts are about 1" (ish) in diameter where they press into the MDF. The speaker mounting hole is about 5/16" from the edge of the cutout for the speaker. That leaves about about 1/8" (ish) of the tee nut hanging out in the speaker cutout. You don't see it when the speakers are in and it really didn't cause any problems, I just know it's there and if the baskets on the speakers were any bigger I think it could potentially cause a problem. Just wondering if tee nuts are what everyone uses or if there were other options?

Like these for instance- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00207NF6W/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B002QMZZQO&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=09NJ5WKX0239A7164FHB

 

[skyline_123]

Ah yes, I see now what you're saying. My apologies that I would think such a thing, it really just goes to show you how big of a idiot I am. Im a visual person and if I dont have pictures then my mind is left to wonder.

I had the same concern with the nut flange thinggy and ended up just cutting a corner out of it. If the magnets are a respectiable size, it seems easy to interfere.

 

[j_garcia]

http://gr-research.com/av-3.aspx