The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[jsc1979]

So if ear height is not the best height for the mic, where should one have it?

 

[M Code]

The best height is what sounds better to your ears... Maybe it will, or maybe not..
I made the point about using the 14" extension rod and raising the microphones height because to my ears it sounded better.. The room size & acoustics are major influences on the microphone frequency response pickup capability...
And in my experience I have found that the lower position of the microphone appears to decrease its ability to factor in the crucial, room reflections. Again as I posted previously I would encourage each to try raising the microphone position and then decide for themselves..
Don't take my word for it.. .
If it sounds worst, no biggee to go back and to the original microphone position.
Take 30 minutes and try it, then comment back..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Irvrobinson]

Doe enyone have an extension rod? Does it really make a difference? How is it better than a tripod?

I always use a mic stand with an extension rod when at home, though the OmniMic comes with a cute little tripod I take with me when I'm traveling. Both work, but I've never measured the difference. Maybe next time, if I remember.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm curious, why is that ?

as for high back listening chairs / sofas, not a good idea to begin with.

Unless they have to be up against the walls. Then they act like room treatments.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The biggest variable for having a good sounding HT or music system is handling the listening room's acoustic impact for its final sonic frequency response....
Key point is the lower the microphone position, the less effect of measuring the room itself.. This can be even more crucial with certain listening rooms that have a high ceiling..
When we developed some of the proprietary DSP EQ algorithms with Dr.Toole's R&D team, I was totally amazed of the different measured transfer functions when elevating the measuring microphone. A similar audible, dramatic effect happened as we went to front height speakers and then to the overhead speakers for the immersive object outputs for Dolby Atmos and DTS X...
I won't post my final preferences but encourage the HT listener to experiment with loudspeaker placement and microphone positioning...
But definitely the final sonic sound stage is greatly influenced and one may find 1 more to one's liking..

Just my $0.02..

So it’s more about raising the Mic more than about the extension rod.

So if we could raise the Tripod higher than ear level, say 15 inches higher, then there’s no need for an extension rod.

 

[PENG]

So it’s more about raising the Mic more than about the extension rod.

So if we could raise the Tripod higher than ear level, say 15 inches higher, then there’s no need for an extension rod.

I always thought XT32 performed/sounded 100X better than XT but then it may be only 4-32X. The rest of the performance gain probably came from the fact that by the time I switched to the AV8801 (XT32,) I had already found (by trial and error) that the mic needed to be placed about 2 inches inches higher than the back of my high back couch. Dr. Chris Kyriakakis had suggested just a few cm would be enough as he seemed to be very keen on the need to be at near ear height.

If you found Audyssey reference or even flat sounding dull, it could be because you didn't raise the mic high enough to clear the couch back; and/or because of the much lower resolution of XT. XT's subwoofer EQ resolution is quite good, 128X vs XT32's 512X, but for the main and satellites it is only 16X vs XT32's 512.

I think if you compare the AVR-X3400H with you CX5100 in my room both using REQ, there is a good chance you may even like the lowly X3400H, and in pure direct with eyes closed I bet you couldn't tell a difference. Now remember I was biased (sort of..) against the X3400H as I have been recommending the X4200W through X4400H based on specs, measurements and my experience with the old 3000 (3805) and 4000 (4308) series.

The CX5100 obviously has better specs and components than my little Denon, but for most people I think sound quality in a system would still be dominated by the quality of the recording and the speakers and rooms. After a few days of serious listening, I am ready to put the AVR in the HT set up. It is a nightmare though, just thinking about the wire forest at the back and the hours of vacuum cleaning.

 

[PENG]

I'm curious, why is that ?

as for high back listening chairs / sofas, not a good idea to begin with.

For short people, ear height could mean more than an inch below the couch back so the reflection could be an issue. Chris K suggested that the mic need to be a few cm higher than the couch back.

 

[PENG]

So it’s more about raising the Mic more than about the extension rod.

So if we could raise the Tripod higher than ear level, say 15 inches higher, then there’s no need for an extension rod.

The rod is best because the tripod needs to be skinny to avoid reflections that may affect the high frequencies. One huge advantage the App offers is that you can specify the frequency range to EQ. So if you limit the frequency to say below 250 Hz, you don't have to worry about rod, tripod or even pillows. Then you can probably survive reference and flat without using the L/R bypass.

 

[KEW]

The rod is best because the tripod needs to be skinny to avoid reflections that may affect the high frequencies. One huge advantage the App offers is that you can specify the frequency range to EQ. So if you limit the frequency to say below 250 Hz, you don't have to worry about rod, tripod or even pillows. Then you can probably survive reference and flat without using the L/R bypass.

The app sounds like it is worth checking out!

The tripod I use looks like this:

For Audyssey calibration, I fully collapse the legs.
Reading about extension rod and elevated, my first thought is to simply crank the center rod up a few inches; however, I am confused when you mention that the extension rod eliminates reflections that can interfere. Do you think my setup is one that would benefit from an extension rod?
I also have a mic stand with boom, but it does not have a convenient mount for the Audyssey mic.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I always thought XT32 performed/sounded 100X better than XT but then it may be only 4-32X. The rest of the performance gain probably came from the fact that by the time I switched to the AV8801 (XT32,) I had already found (by trial and error) that the mic needed to be placed about 2 inches inches higher than the back of my high back couch. Dr. Chris Kyriakakis had suggested just a few cm would be enough as he seemed to be very keen on the need to be at near ear height.

If you found Audyssey reference or even flat sounding dull, it could be because you didn't raise the mic high enough to clear the couch back; and/or because of the much lower resolution of XT. XT's subwoofer EQ resolution is quite good, 128X vs XT32's 512X, but for the main and satellites it is only 16X vs XT32's 512.

I think if you compare the AVR-X3400H with you CX5100 in my room both using REQ, there is a good chance you may even like the lowly X3400H, and in pure direct with eyes closed I bet you couldn't tell a difference. Now remember I was biased (sort of..) against the X3400H as I have been recommending the X4200W through X4400H based on specs, measurements and my experience with the old 3000 (3805) and 4000 (4308) series.

The CX5100 obviously has better specs and components than my little Denon, but for most people I think sound quality in a system would still be dominated by the quality of the recording and the speakers and rooms. After a few days of serious listening, I am ready to put the AVR in the HT set up. It is a nightmare though, just thinking about the wire forest at the back and the hours of vacuum cleaning.

I'll probably apply the YPAO again this weekend with the Mic 12" higher than ear level. Room dimension is 22'W x 26'L x 14'H. I sit about 18' from the front speakers.

As far as SQ between the CX-A5100 vs AVR-X3400H, I bet I could get the same SQ from both. In some rooms, I bet the X3400 may even sound better than the Yamaha because I have a feeling XT32 is better than YPAO.

So why did I KEEP the Yamaha CX-A5100 Pre-pro instead of getting the Denon X3400H or another Denon/Marantz or just using the Denon AVR-5308CI ?

There are always many factors. I will try to recap.

1. I've been using my Denon's for a long time and I am intimately familiar with the sound that I love when using Audyssey Bypass L/R + DEQ. The CX-A5100 achieved this same sound that I love.

2. I feel that XT32 is better than YPAO. But since I can now get the same sound I love from the CX-A5100 without EQ, Room-EQ doesn't matter to me. But if your room acoustics is on the "bad side" and you need Room EQ, I think you better go with XT32.

3. I used to be a Pure Analog no-EQ audiophile and I hated all DSP and EQ. But then I had to "compromise" and "reluctantly accept" Audyssey Dynamic EQ because it made the sound quality unequivocally better than no EQ. But now I can get this same great sound quality that I'm so addicted to without using any kind of EQ. Yes, now I can be a No-EQ audiophile again!

4. The dialogue from the CX-A5100 seems to be the best I've heard. I don't care if Yamaha does the same thing as DTS and boost the Center Dialogue. All I know is that I've never heard dialogue sound this clear. Even when the characters whisper and mumble, I could hear just about everything. I love it! I re-watched some scenes from "Transformers Last Knight" and "Batman v. Superman" and the clear loud dialogues just make the experience so much more enjoyable. We also watched "Journey's End" about World War I. The bass sounds from the bombs are just absolutely awesome, yet the dialogue is absolutely crystal clear throughout all the bombing and actions scenes.

5. Reliability. I've had one Denon AVR died on me, but that was a long time ago and it was a low-end model, so I could understand that. But my $7,500 AVP that I bought brand new dying after 10 years or less is unacceptable. So I am hoping that this Yamaha CX-A5100 will last a lot longer than 10 years. Only time will tell. Just never know.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That looks exactly like mine!

And you can extend that neck pretty high up too.

 

[PENG]

That looks exactly like mine!

And you can extend that neck pretty high up too.

That looks like mine too, but now I actually prefer the paper one is included in the box, except for the rear positions because I don't want to play with the flimsy paper's extension tube.

 

[PENG]

I'll probably apply the YPAO again this weekend with the Mic 12" higher than ear level. Room dimension is 22'W x 26'L x 14'H. I sit about 18' from the front speakers.

As far as SQ between the CX-A5100 vs AVR-X3400H, I bet I could get the same SQ from both. In some rooms, I bet the X3400 may even sound better than the Yamaha because I have a feeling XT32 is better than YPAO.

So why did I KEEP the Yamaha CX-A5100 Pre-pro instead of getting the Denon X3400H or another Denon/Marantz or just using the Denon AVR-5308CI ?

There are always many factors. I will try to recap.

1. I've been using my Denon's for a long time and I am intimately familiar with the sound that I love when using Audyssey Bypass L/R + DEQ. The CX-A5100 achieved this same sound that I love.

2. I feel that XT32 is better than YPAO. But since I can now get the same sound I love from the CX-A5100 without EQ, Room-EQ doesn't matter to me. But if your room acoustics is on the "bad side" and you need Room EQ, I think you better go with XT32.

3. I used to be a Pure Analog no-EQ audiophile and I hated all DSP and EQ. But then I had to "compromise" and "reluctantly accept" Audyssey Dynamic EQ because it made the sound quality unequivocally better than no EQ. But now I can get this same great sound quality that I'm so addicted to without using any kind of EQ. Yes, now I can be a No-EQ audiophile again!

4. The dialogue from the CX-A5100 seems to be the best I've heard. I don't care if Yamaha does the same thing as DTS and boost the Center Dialogue. All I know is that I've never heard dialogue sound this clear. Even when the characters whisper and mumble, I could hear just about everything. I love it! I re-watched some scenes from "Transformers Last Knight" and "Batman v. Superman" and the clear loud dialogues just make the experience so much more enjoyable. We also watched "Journey's End" about World War I. The bass sounds from the bombs are just absolutely awesome, yet the dialogue is absolutely crystal clear throughout all the bombing and actions scenes.

5. Reliability. I've had one Denon AVR died on me, but that was a long time ago and it was a low-end model, so I could understand that. But my $7,500 AVP that I bought brand new dying after 10 years or less is unacceptable. So I am hoping that this Yamaha CX-A5100 will last a lot longer than 10 years. Only time will tell. Just never know.

For the price, I think is is a much better value than the AV8805 because you don't need Audyssey any more.

 

[jsc1979]

I use something like the below with my mic boom. Works with my spl meter and YPAO mic. Works pretty slick and there are several styles on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Talent-Joint-Camera-Adapter-Microphone/dp/B072YLR9V4/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1530023999&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=talent+msc

 

[panteragstk]

For short people, ear height could mean more than an inch below the couch back so the reflection could be an issue. Chris K suggested that the mic need to be a few cm higher than the couch back.

For me, ear height (at least my ears) is well above the back of the couch so I think I should be good. When I get the time to grab the app again I'll try a bit higher.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For the price, I think is is a much better value than the AV8805 because you don't need Audyssey any more.

For me, the price difference:
$700 between CX-A5100 and AV8802
$500 between AV8802 and AV8805
$1,200 between CX-A5100 and AV8805

$700 could get me another Denon X4400
$500 could get me another X3400

So given all these numbers, I wonder what most people would do?

 

[Verdinut]

As far as I am concerned, I like the CX-A5100 and if I could afford one, I would not hesitate to purchase it.
I suspect that D & M products still have HDMI board issues. One of my friends had his SR5011 repaired about 2 years ago, and the HDMI board problem has just recurred.

Next time, since Yamaha seems to have a good reliability record, I think I will get one of their products in replacement of my SR5010. At present, that CX-A5100 AVP and the RX-A880 AVR seem to be excellent options as pre-pros in a good 7 channel HT system.

 

[PENG]

For me, ear height (at least my ears) is well above the back of the couch so I think I should be good. When I get the time to grab the app again I'll try a bit higher.

I tried up to about 3.5 inches above the couch back and it still worked well but 1 to 2 inches should be enough and more than a few inches may not be good. If your ear height is above the back by that much then you should just go with ear height.

No harm trying higher but don't expect better results, though you may be nicely surprised.

 

[PENG]

For me, the price difference:
$700 between CX-A5100 and AV8802
$500 between AV8802 and AV8805
$1,200 between CX-A5100 and AV8805

$700 could get me another Denon X4400
$500 could get me another X3400

So given all these numbers, I wonder what most people would do?

Can't argue with that logic!!

Imo Marantz may have priced the 8805 out of the game. I would grab the avr-8500 instead if I really want a 11 channel prepro but I think the 4400 is good enough.

 

[M Code]

The rod is best because the tripod needs to be skinny to avoid reflections that may affect the high frequencies.

Exactly..
The advantage of the extension rod is to isolate the measuring microphone away from any reflective surface. So that the microphone is making its measurement just for the room acoustics themself....
This principle is just like loudspeaker engineers that develop transducers they typically do their measurements on a "free air" platform rather than an anechoic chamber as the chamber even though designed to be neutral is still a room...

Just my $0.02...