tekton - the next big thing?

[Send Margaritas]

Why measurements? Because a loudspeakers is a mechanical/electrical device. The engineering uses math and physics. It either performs well, mediocre, or bad. There are no room for opinions, only real hard facts. ...

I don't claim to know everything about audio. But isn't this just a starting point? Once you put a speaker in a room, placement and room acoustics pretty much throw this logic out the window, no? Measurements are pretty much just a good starting point, no?

 

[jcl]

The problem with Internet Direct speakers is that it's not that easy to get a listen to them before you buy. So you generally have to use some criteria to help determine if you should order or not.

Measurements are one way. If you know what you like or dislike then measurements can help you determine how a speaker may sound.

Reviews, professional and otherwise are another. However, your tastes and preferences may not be that of the reviewer. Reviewers may also have ulterior motives.

For me I want a speaker to reproduce the recording. If I want to enhance the recording I would use equalization or dsp to do so. I don't want my speakers (amp, cables, etc) to change the recording. I want a studio recording to remain a studio recording and a live recording to stay live sounding. Studio recordings generally don't have the ambiance of a venue the way a live recording does.

Speakers in the price ranges of most of us here are a set of compromises involving cost vs. performance. Different designers compromise in different areas leading to different sounding speakers. Tekton and more so Zu appear to favor efficiency and dynamics over flat frequency response.

 

[rext81]

There's obviously a balance to be struck between measurements and what you hear. I'm not someone who would tell anyone to sell a pair of speakers that sound great to them, but I'm also not one to scoff at measurements so easily. The measurements, math, and physics are more important than you obviously realize, but when it comes time to spend your own money, what you hear is clearly the bottom line.

I'll say this, no matter how a speaker measures you find a pair you like, then look at the measurements. The measurements will point you in a direction for the next pair you buy. If the pair you buy has a hump here, or a dip there, or "midrange mushroom cloud" as one member is fond of saying, and you love that pair of speakers, then the next time you're out buying you should look for a pair that has that. You've identified something in a speaker that you like.

It is beyond argument to say that it is a flaw in the speaker, because based on the math and physics it is a flaw, but it is a flaw that you probably enjoy. The better a speaker measures, the more accurate it will be to the source material. Now I'm not one who claims that every speaker that measures exactly the same, be it perfect or not, will sound alike, but they will sound much more similar than different based on the similarity of their respective measurements.

I'm not saying anything about the Zu speakers or the Tektons, this is all in generalities, although we will have some hard evidence about the Tektons in the somewhat near future. However, I will say that if you completely don't believe in measurements, then why are you here? This place has proved overwhelmingly in favor of measurements and accuracy. I'm not saying there's not a place for those who do not, but it just seems odd to me that two people who seem to scoff at the measurements would gravitate to a forum that holds the technical aspects in such a high regard.

To each their own.

My own personal preference is accuracy. I want a piano to sound like a piano, a cello a cello, etc. A flat response gets me close to that. If I liked a certain speaker, I'd want to see it measured to know what I like and what to look for in the future.

Cheers and gobble gobble

To me, this is the rational response. (Surprisingly, not the one posted by the local Wharfedale sales rep telling "jerk offs" to "get a life.")

Also, IMHO, the Zu Omen Def sounds terrible. Measurements or not, they sounded honky and obnoxious. Of course, YMMV.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[groovytunes58]

That would be a point I was alluding to above......We all say we like live music, and that is far from having a flat frequency curve.

'Live' is what Zu is 'hinting' at with their speakers. They are not trying to make a loudspeaker that John Atkinson would adore. As their tagline goes 'A speaker for the rest of us'.

Now, let's disect

 

[fuzz092888]

That would be a point I was alluding to above......We all say we like live music, and that is far from having a flat frequency curve.

What proof do you have of this?

 

[groovytunes58]

We be dissecting everything, huh? You provide your proof, then I will do likewise.

 

[jonnythan]

That would be a point I was alluding to above......We all say we like live music, and that is far from having a flat frequency curve.

'Live' is what Zu is 'hinting' at with their speakers. They are not trying to make a loudspeaker that John Atkinson would adore. As their tagline goes 'A speaker for the rest of us'.

Now, let's disect

That doesn't make any sense. In the home we're not producing signals directly from instruments. When live music, whether in a stadium or studio, is recorded, we are recording it however it is mixed and played. What a flat frequency response should do is not alter the sound between the live recording and reproduction at home.

We're never going to be able to 100% accurately reproduce the sound created by a saxophone with a mechanical cone driver. Ever. It's just not going to happen. What amplified concerts have that we don't have in the home is enormous spaces and virtually infinite dynamic range.

 

[templemaners]

We be dissecting everything, huh? You provide your proof, then I will do likewise.

Considering you made the initial claim that live music is far from a flat frequency curve, the proof is first on you to back up such a claim, not on fuzz. Or you could just go ahead and continue to be argumentative.

 

[jonnythan]

Considering you made the initial claim that live music is far from a flat frequency curve, the proof is first on you to back up such a claim, not on fuzz. Or you could just go ahead and continue to be argumentative.

Live music is live. They're not playing a recording.

 

[rext81]

That would be a point I was alluding to above......We all say we like live music, and that is far from having a flat frequency curve.

'Live' is what Zu is 'hinting' at with their speakers. They are not trying to make a loudspeaker that John Atkinson would adore. As their tagline goes 'A speaker for the rest of us'.

Now, let's disect

I don't even know where to start here. I'm not aware of any music that has a "flat frequency curve." I'm fairly certain music that has a "flat frequency curve" would not be music at all.

I think the point behind designing a speaker with a "flat frequency curve" is to honesty reproduce the recording. For example, if the music I am listening to has some tone of 150 hz at 85 db, I would like my speakers to play a tone of 150 hz at 85 db. Speakers with a "flat frequency curve" would be able to accurately reproduce this. On the other hand, the Zu speakers would severely attenuate this tone and cause the music to sound dramatically different than the way it was recorded. If you like this, fine, that's your preference. But there's nothing more "live" about it, other than a few words out of a marketing firm's mouth or keyboard. Many people like inaccurate speakers and source components.

I'm not debating personal preferences - I simply prefer an accurate speaker after listening to many, many speakers measuring very differently. You're entitled to your point of view. However, discrediting all measurements and then spouting off marketing rubbish about speakers "for the rest of us" designed to sound "live" is an invitation for response.

Hope no one got trampled to death on this Black Friday.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

What proof do you have of this?

I don't think this is a matter of proof. It's just a basic misunderstanding. Of course real music isn't "flat." It will almost never have equal energy across the spectrum. At least I hope not. That would make for some pretty boring material. But speakers have to be flat to replicate whatever the real frequency distribution was. Speakers reproduce music. They don't produce it.

 

[shadyJ]

We be dissecting everything, huh? You provide your proof, then I will do likewise.

Toole, F. E., 1986, Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences: Part 2, J. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol 34, No. 5, p. 323-348.

From the point of view of the sound-quality assessments the evidence suggests that listeners simply preferred the loudspeakers with the fewest technical defects of those that were measured and are known to be audible. In this sense the subjective measurements appear to be neutral.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't think this is a matter of proof. It's just a basic misunderstanding. Of course real music isn't "flat." It will almost never have equal energy across the spectrum. At least I hope not. That would make for some pretty boring material. But speakers have to be flat to replicate whatever the real frequency distribution was. Speakers reproduce music. They don't produce it.

There is a possible issue here Dennis. This thread has had its ups and downs and this is one of the definite daft down spots.

Of course speakers need to be as flat and neutral as possible.

You and I like the sound of natural instruments, and singers without amplification via a microphone stuffed down their epiglottis, amplifying a weedy nasal voice.

However, there always seems to be a market for perfectly dreadful speakers from the pop enthusiasts.

Now there is a a respondent on this thread who wants it to sound live, and I have to assume since he has a liking for dreadful speakers he means a rock concert.

Now instrument and vocal speakers used by bands are perfectly dreadful and if anything have lost ground in the last half century, when Altec Lansing, JBL and Klipsch were pre-eminent.

When the CD or what ever is produced it is laid down from the mix desk and not from the awful PA speakers. So I suppose there are some who want to experience the dreadful sound of a live rock concert. The only way to do that would be via a nasty harsh shouty speaker. I have a suspicion that is the only reason those speakers have a market.

The notion that you don't need science or measurement to produce good speakers is way off base. I remember a time when we had little science and no T/S parameters. I can assure you we wasted a lot of wood and glue. Even our best lucky shots, fell far short of what we can do now.

Any one who thinks that all you need is ears and a brain between them to produce and evaluate speakers, actually only has a couple of neurons and half a synapse between the ears.

 

[ridikas]

Those speakers have a market because the world is full of gullible people.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

There is a possible issue here Dennis. This thread has had its ups and downs and this is one of the definite daft down spots.

Of course speakers need to be as flat and neutral as possible.

You and I like the sound of natural instruments, and singers without amplification via a microphone stuffed down their epiglottis, amplifying a weedy nasal voice.

However, there always seems to be a market for perfectly dreadful speakers from the pop enthusiasts.

Now there is a a respondent on this thread who wants it to sound live, and I have to assume since he has a liking for dreadful speakers he means a rock concert.

Now instrument and vocal speakers used by bands are perfectly dreadful and if anything have lost ground in the last half century, when Altec Lansing, JBL and Klipsch were pre-eminent.

When the CD or what ever is produced it is laid down from the mix desk and not from the awful PA speakers. So I suppose there are some who want to experience the dreadful sound of a live rock concert. The only way to do that would be via a nasty harsh shouty speaker. I have a suspicion that is the only reason those speakers have a market.

The notion that you don't need science or measurement to produce good speakers is way off base. I remember a time when we had little science and no T/S parameters. I can assure you we wasted a lot of wood and glue. Even our best lucky shots, fell far short of what we can do now.

Any one who thinks that all you need is ears and a brain between them to produce and evaluate speakers, actually only has a couple of neurons and half a synapse between the ears.

I'm not sure the poster would agree with your interpretation of his remarks, but he can reply for himself. In any event, we certainly are approaching loudspeaker design and performance from the same vantage point. It's a science.

 

[ImcLoud]

Any one who thinks that all you need is ears and a brain between them to produce and evaluate speakers, actually only has a couple of neurons and half a synapse between the ears.

See this is where a few guys on this board lose me, If the speaker sounds good to the buyer, that is all that matters, I think if all he has is ears and a brain he will be better at picking which speakers he likes than you a mic and some graphs?

I'm not saying throw the science away, but leave that to the builders, the listeners need to let their ears decide...
The Lores I bought sound different than other speakers I have heard, I enjoy them with live tracks and most rock bands... I seen Bruce live many times, and when I want to relive that, the lores are the only speakers I have that come close...
Are they super flat? maybe not
but do they do what I paid for them to do, which was sound accurate and loud with little power? YES

And I would't let anyone on this board or anyone in general show me a graph to convince me they sound bad...

I know this is an audiophile board, and some poeple take pride in being anal with the numbers, which is fine, but I wouldn't try to convince someone to sell their speakers because the graphs are not what you want to see...

A professional chef would probably say chocolate covered bacon will not taste good but it is in fact delicious...

 

[ridikas]

See this is where a few guys on this board lose me, If the speaker sounds good to the buyer, that is all that matters, I think if all he has is ears and a brain he will be better at picking which speakers he likes than you a mic and some graphs?

I'm not saying throw the science away, but leave that to the builders, the listeners need to let their ears decide...
The Lores I bought sound different than other speakers I have heard, I enjoy them with live tracks and most rock bands... I seen Bruce live many times, and when I want to relive that, the lores are the only speakers I have that come close...
Are they super flat? maybe not
but do they do what I paid for them to do, which was sound accurate and loud with little power? YES

And I would't let anyone on this board or anyone in general show me a graph to convince me they sound bad...

I know this is an audiophile board, and some poeple take pride in being anal with the numbers, which is fine, but I wouldn't try to convince someone to sell their speakers because the graphs are not what you want to see...

A professional chef would probably say chocolate covered bacon will not taste good but it is in fact delicious...

Then these buyers need to state the following: "I understand that my speakers are poorly engineered and measure terribly, but in MY opinion they sound good."

The problem is is that these buyers come here and try to defend that their so called speakers are actually good, thus making complete fools of themselves.

Speakers are not food. They're not art. They are a mechanical/electrical device. When will you understand that? There's no pseudo science here.

 

[ImcLoud]

Then these buyers need to state the following: "I understand that my speakers are poorly engineered and measure terribly, but in MY opinion they sound good."

The problem is is that these buyers come here and try to defend that their so called speakers are actually good, thus making complete fools of themselves.

Speakers are not food. They're not art. They are a mechanical/electrical device. When will you understand that? There's no pseudo science here.

But if they sound good to them, who are you to say they are not good... I'm not sure how the lores would measure, but it wouldn't have swayed my decision to buy them, because after I heard them they were what I was looking for...

 

[rext81]

/snip
but do they do what I paid for them to do, which was sound accurate and loud with little power? YES

/snip

What do you mean by accurate? Just curious...

 

[ridikas]

But if they sound good to them, who are you to say they are not good... I'm not sure how the lores would measure, but it wouldn't have swayed my decision to buy them, because after I heard them they were what I was looking for...

Here, I'll write it again for you...

The speakers in question are garbage performance wise = FACT.

The speakers in question sound good to the buyers in question = Their OPINION.

Is that more clear?