tekton - the next big thing?

[NewHTbuyer]

Earlier on in this thread there was a lot of technical discussion regarding the possible issues of the Pendragon. Could some of you more in the know point out some similar designed speakers, ie basically single driver units, that are considered well designed and have been vetted. Are Zu speakers considered well designed and built?

 

[ratso]

Revel Ultima, KEF Reference, B&W Diamond, Dynaudio Confidence, Focal Electra, Tekton Pendragon, XTZ Devine, Salk SS.....bring them on.

Focal Utopia Diablo? I was pretty serious about these bad boys.

-copycat. but actually that is the question that you helped answer, def - if you can get 90% of the sound of "flagship" speakers with a bookshelf and sub(s) setup why spend the money for the flagships? esp. when the "flagship" is $200,000 in the case of the focals.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

-copycat. but actually that is the question that you helped answer, def - if you can get 90% of the sound of "flagship" speakers with a bookshelf and sub(s) setup why spend the money for the flagships? esp. when the "flagship" is $200,000 in the case of the focals.

I see no reason to spend $200K on the Utopia Grande when you could spend only $12K on the Utopia Diablo.

Oh, yeah, I do believe in that trickle down effect.

 

[GranteedEV]

-copycat. but actually that is the question that you helped answer, def - if you can get 90% of the sound of "flagship" speakers with a bookshelf and sub(s) setup why spend the money for the flagships? esp. when the "flagship" is $200,000 in the case of the focals.

Part of the sound of a true flagship is in its Ability to deliver full-scale dynamics. Even eitth subs you can't expect that from a little bookshelf...

 

[cpp]

I see no reason to spend $200K on the Utopia Grande when you could spend only $12K on the Utopia Diablo.

Oh, yeah, I do believe in that trickle down effect.

I would envision you couldn't hear the difference in sound between the Salons and the $200 k speakers in your current room but maybe you could feel the sound pressure. Save you money and do something sensible with it, like building a new house or a NEW listening room.

 

[ratso]

Part of the sound of a true flagship is in its Ability to deliver full-scale dynamics. Even eitth subs you can't expect that from a little bookshelf...

could you explain that sir? seriously, not smart assedly. the tweeter is probably the same. and i would think a slightly smaller midrange wouldn't provide much at all in the dynamics dept. but you would get dynamics out the wazzoo with dual 18" funks? isn't that where most of the "dynamics" would come from, the giant bass slam? am i wrong here?

 

[gene]

could you explain that sir? seriously, not smart assedly. i would think the tweet and midrange don't provide much at all in the dynamics dept. but you would get dynamics out the wazzoo with dual 18" funks? am i wrong here?

You're forgetting about mid bass above 80Hz that a single midrange simply cannot keep up with a dedicated powered sub below those frequencies. This is why a speaker like the EMP E55Ti (although has very weak bass extension below 50Hz) has oddles of midbass that will be an easy match for a high output sub to achieve lifelike dynamics which a simple two-way bookshelf cannot do in a large room.

 

[ratso]

i am sure you are correct that this adds a lot to the overall dynamics. i do, however, remember at RMAF when i heard the biggest utopia floorstanders by focal and the smallest ones and the difference between the two was more alike than dissimilar. i also continue to wonder if dynamics is the reason why most people that hear them are continuing to rave about the tektons even though they seem to have design flaws.

 

[GranteedEV]

could you explain that sir? seriously, not smart assedly. the tweeter is probably the same. and i would think a slightly smaller midrange wouldn't provide much at all in the dynamics dept. but you would get dynamics out the wazzoo with dual 18" funks? isn't that where most of the "dynamics" would come from, the giant bass slam? am i wrong here?

dynamics is more than just bass slam. It's "composure". Small speakers lose "composure" quicker and start to sound "okay". Not offensive distortion, but a different sound character that's hard to describe.

I'm not even talking extreme distances or SPLs. I'm just talking "lifelike levels".

Here we have the diablo utopia:

Awesome looking speaker, btw. I wanna emulate the baffle tilt on the SEOS project. Anyways what it is is a

So here's a few things I can see on the spec sheet:

Sensitivity - 89db/2.83v/m
Minimum Impedance - 4Ω
Crossover Frequency - 2200hz
Dimensions (HxWxD) - 16-15/16 x 10-3/16 x 16-13/16

Let's compare with its immediate sibling the Scala Utopia, which I in fact liked in the short while/limited content that I listened to it:

Sensitivity - 92dB/2.83v/m
Minimum impedance - 3.1Ω
Crossover frequency - 250Hz/2200Hz
Dimensions (HxWxD) - 49-1/8 x 15-1/2 x 16-3/8

What can we draw? Well first of all let's make the assumption that both speakers are crossed to a subwoofer at 80hz to level the playing field.

Now the tweeter crossover frequency is unchanged, so you're right, there probably won't be much difference in the highs. That's fair enough, especially since a lot of music may not have high power demand in the treble.

The first difference I'll point out though, is the 5" wider, and almost 3x as large baffle. What does this mean? It means the frequency where the radiation shifts from hemispherical to omnidirectional is going to be meaningfully lower. Because of that you should get anywhere from 3 to 5db of efficiency boost in the 300hz to 1khz range. It can be accurately simmed, though I didn't bother. The point is that the sound power is not being lost in the rearward direction - you get a bump in the natural efficiency. Thus the crossover designer has the attenuate the upper mids and treble less! Notice how these have 92db sensitivity while the Diablo has 89db? That's one place where this is evident.

3db more efficiency means you literally need half the power. Where you'd need 50W, here you'll need 25. How much power can the voice coil of a 6" mid really take? I'd say cutting that in half is a pretty big achievement along. The difference between 100W and 200W may be the difference between an articulate sound and a compressed sound.

The next thing to point out is the crossover frequency. Notice how the midrange is crossed over to a 10" woofer not at 80hz, or 100hz, but rather at 250hz! I don't know much about focal's transfer function, but you can assume that at this frequency the midrange is already anywhere from 3db to 6db down in level. What does that mean?

1) Where it would have received 100W it's now possibly only getting as little as 25W!

2) A 6" mid has limited excursion and surface area. Let's say it's very linear within 8mm of throw (which assumes it's one of the finest drivers in the world!)and starts to lose composure past that point. At 80hz, it would xmax at ~103db @ 1m - even 10 feet away you're into the low 90s due to distance and baffle step losses. And 8mm throw (16mm peak to peak) while simulatenously reproducing 2khz? That's quite a lot to ask for under 100db SPL! Crossed over at 80hz that would put your system max SPL at only ~95-96db between the sub and the midrange both producing equal output! Certainly there's the aformentioned bass slam that's going to start to get hurt by this. More realistically you can expect less xmax from a 6" driver - closer to 5mm!

2b) A 6" mid at 250hz? You really don't have to worry about xmax at all anymore! Only thermal power handling

2c) So what IS handling 80hz to 250hz? A bigger woofer, with ~2-3X more surface area, more excursion, and a larger voice coil that can handle more power! The Scala Utopia is spec'd at 500W power handling while the Diablo Utopia spec'd at 200W power handling. That means just going by the spec sheet alone, the Scala has over 7db of thermal headroom over the Diablo Utopia - over twice the power handling and apparently higher efficiency.

 

[GranteedEV]

i do, however, remember at RMAF when i heard the biggest utopia floorstanders by focal and the smallest ones and the difference between the two was more alike than dissimilar.

Not every track will highlight the difference, so no doubt you heard more similarities than differences. But then I find a song in my collection, that's like "okay cool" until I listen to it on bigger speakers. Then it's like "H..F..S"

 

[ratso]

super informative and much appreciated, grant. i would prob. give a kidney for those scala's btw. would it alter the argument much if you compared the two without the scala having subs? just plain full range vs bookshelf/subs? you would still lose on baffle size and midrange efficiency but you would gain in bass response, would it make it a closer fight? you said "may be the difference between an articulate sound and a compressed sound." and i am guessing this would still be the case so you would still lose?

 

[slipperybidness]

i am sure you are correct that this adds a lot to the overall dynamics. i do, however, remember at RMAF when i heard the biggest utopia floorstanders by focal and the smallest ones and the difference between the two was more alike than dissimilar. i also continue to wonder if dynamics is the reason why most people that hear them are continuing to rave about the tektons even though they seem to have design flaws.

FWIW, I prefer the P363 over the SM350. I would most likely attribute it to dynamics and the lower end on the P363.

 

[ski2xblack]

i do, however, remember at RMAF when i heard the biggest utopia floorstanders by focal and the smallest ones and the difference between the two was more alike than dissimilar.

Now compare those two systems at higher spl, or trying to fill larger space, or both. Could be that the limits of the smaller brethren were not exceeded when you heard them.

i also continue to wonder if dynamics is the reason why most people that hear them are continuing to rave about the tektons even though they seem to have design flaws.

Absolutely. They may not be an engineering tour de force, but they have the dynamic range part nailed. It goes a long way in the "fun factor" and liveliness of the whole presentation.

 

[GranteedEV]

super informative and much appreciated, grant. i would prob. give a kidney for those scala's btw. would it alter the argument much if you compared the two without the scala having subs? just plain full range vs bookshelf/subs? you would still lose on baffle size and midrange efficiency but you would gain in bass response, would it make it a closer fight? you said "may be the difference between an articulate sound and a compressed sound." and i am guessing this would still be the case so you would still lose?

Well it depends on the spectrum of the source content. Some things might sound bassist on the 18" subs, though the scalas had some very impactful weight bass. But i bet you'd find yourself inclined to limit the volume based on stress cues from the Diablos. Not "oh I'm pushing these too hard" but rather "Hmm..I should turn it down" - it's subconscious.

When I heard the Scalas I didn't realize how loud things were until I couldn't hear the dealer three feet ae way from me! the 60hz - 300hz range is some of the most demanding... so I certainly wouldn't assume I'm okay with it being SPL limited.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well first of all let's make the assumption that both speakers are crossed to a subwoofer at 80hz...

The next thing to point out is the crossover frequency. Notice how the midrange is crossed over to a 10" woofer not at 80hz, or 100hz, but rather at 250hz!

2b) A 6" mid at 250hz? You really don't have to worry about xmax at all anymore! Only thermal power handling

So you would need a sub accurate from 20-250Hz ?

 

[GranteedEV]

So you would need a sub accurate from 20-250Hz ?

Four subs from 15 to 100hz, and a sealed 12" woofer from 80hz to 300hz

 

[whasaaaab]

Pendragon for sale with upgraded crossovers (silver oil)

Tekton Pendragon, upgraded xover full range speaker | Full range | Tucson, Arizona 85747 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

 

[DS-21]

So you would need a sub accurate from 20-250Hz ?

No. Ideally a sub should be accurate to about 2 octaves above the nominal highpass. So if you use your subs up to 120Hz or so, that means they need to be clean to about 500Hz.

That's one reason I love the Aurasound drivers. Though even more plebeian stuff, such as the Peerless XLS, Dayton Reference, and TC 2+/TC1000 are good enough to mostly get there.

 

[Pjl2122]

Returning Pendragons - not likely

If you read all th reviews out here on these ou will know that these peakers destroy the competition as far as reality ,the focal anniversary mentioned against theTekton model I have heard it us like fhifi box vs dynamic , and alive
In he Tekton almost every reviewer agrees even with the smaller models.
If you are like me and want to hear it at it's best buy the capacitor upgrade
I have we'll over 5 Years experience with Mundorf capacitors of every model they make in various modification builds,They make every instrument,part of the performance much more real. I recently ordered the New Pendragon - SE
Model with the Scanspeak Tweeters,Seas Prestige series dual 8 inch woofers
And the Mundorf Silver oil caps, I invite Anyone in the New Englnd area to come over and hear them ,and you can decide if you would like them.
Don't knock em until you have hear them in a good setting .there are many reasons why a speaker does or does not workout .Tekton speakers
Are one of the best buys in all of audio in their respective price category.

 

[jonnythan]

If you read all th reviews out here on these ou will know that these peakers destroy the competition as far as reality ,the focal anniversary mentioned against theTekton model I have heard it us like fhifi box vs dynamic , and alive
In he Tekton almost every reviewer agrees even with the smaller models.
If you are like me and want to hear it at it's best buy the capacitor upgrade
I have we'll over 5 Years experience with Mundorf capacitors of every model they make in various modification builds,They make every instrument,part of the performance much more real. I recently ordered the New Pendragon - SE
Model with the Scanspeak Tweeters,Seas Prestige series dual 8 inch woofers
And the Mundorf Silver oil caps, I invite Anyone in the New Englnd area to come over and hear them ,and you can decide if you would like them.
Don't knock em until you have hear them in a good setting .there are many reasons why a speaker does or does not workout .Tekton speakers
Are one of the best buys in all of audio in their respective price category.

Welcome to Audioholics. What's your job title over at Tekton?