Tekton Enzo - The most inexpensive speakers that is in the league with high-end speaker

[VicTorious1]

Design flaw and tradeoff, it's really just semantics. People tend to label certain tradeoffs as flaws when accuracy is compromised. I can't comment on what the designer was going for because I haven't read it nor have I heard any of the speakers in question. From what you describe I'd call it more of a flaw. That being said, just because I call it a flaw and you call it a design consideration doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy the sound or that I wouldn't for certain applications. I've grown to appreciate accuracy and at this point wouldn't spend money on something that wasn't pretty accurate, but that doesn't I haven't and don't enjoy certain speakers or systems that are "non-audiophile".

My main point about the Tektons isn't that no one should buy them, or that they sound horrific (at least I'm told they don't), it's that if you wanted a high sensitivity speaker there are much more accurate ones that will deliver all that the Tektons do for less money and question marks. Tack on the other baggage and it seems like an unnecessary risk from my POV. What it looks like from someone else's POV is for them to decide and it's their money to spend. If they choose to take the leap and are satisfied with the purchase I give them a big virtual pat on back (no sarcasm intended) and say good for you. I'm happy with what I've got, you're happy with what you've got, the end. I'm not here to bash Tekton, only to make sure it's an informed buying decision. These are the known and suspected issues. These are the problems people have had. The pro-reviews are a little suspect in some cases and purely subjective in others. These are your other options.

I hear you, and I don't think you've bashed Tekton at all, but I think the difference in the terms "design flaw" and "design trade off" are not simply a matter of semantics. If I'm developing a telescope that has standard magnification at 10x, 20x and 30x, but my clients only care about pinpoint magnification at 20x. If I decide to modify the lens so that it has pinpoint accuracy at 20x but looses its standard magnification and visibility at 30x, I would not call that a design flaw; indeed, it would be deemed a design trade off.

Nonetheless, I did not say, nor did I intend to imply, that Eric actually did make a design trade off. The actual design of the Tektons may well be flawed. I don't know and was trying to articulate that it seemed that Dennis was saying that the design in question (woofer dying off to the side) could be intended and not that it was intended. I don't know and I don't think anyone on this forum knows if Eric was intending to create super accurate speakers or if he was intending to go after a specific type of sound that is less accurate. I've thought about getting an omnimic to measure these M Lores, but just haven't found the effort yet.

The last thing I'm here to do is defend Tekton. I've yet to recommend them to others as the company has some material issues to deal with. In addition, if I were dropping any significant coin, I would go with a known quantity that I could hear or in home audition. Had JTR or Seaton had an offering in the $500-$600 range that was a full range speaker, I would have likely tried their offerings instead.

 

[SearchofSub]

Isn't Dennis really saying that with those design trade offs it's still possible for the Tektons to sound good and that he would withhold judgment until he could measure them/hear them? If a speaker designer is not trying to create super accurate speakers and anticipates or intends for the woofer to die off to the sides, could you really call it a design flaw if that's the intended design and sound result the manufacturer is going for?

I can attest to my M Lores not being as accurate or detailed as my Phils, nor is the bass as tight as the Phils. In addition, the soundstage is smaller and the more instruments that are playing on any given track the more likely the M Lores sound as if the distinct sounds are blended together or on top of each other. Whereas with my Phils, the sound stage never collapses. For example, if there are 6 instruments playing they all hold their location with the Phils.

With all that being said, I still enjoy listening to my M Lores.

Hmm.. Intesresting.. price difference?

 

[SearchofSub]

So now, instead of buying a pair of Enzo's for 2K shipped, you're getting a 4.1 for around 2.5K. Let's not forget he wasn't the one doing the pushing on the Enzo. That was you who started this thread, remember? What he's effectively done is to feel you out and get you to drop another 500 or so. That's being a good salesman!

Forgot to mention I was gonna go with 4.1 eNZO's in the beggining and he was aware of it.

 

[VicTorious1]

Hmm.. Intesresting.. price difference?

There is a not insignificant price difference between the Phil 2 and M Lore, approximately $3,000 vs $650, respectively. So I never anticipated that the M Lore would perform the same as the Phils. In addition, I chose the M Lore as opposed to the larger Lore because it uses a smaller driver (8" vs 10"), which is less susceptible to beaming and may essentially be operated similar to a full range driver. A 10" driver would likely having beaming issues prior to being crossed over to the tweeter. I'm not sure where Tekton crosses over the driver to the tweeter on the M-Lore, but I use my speakers essentially as monitors in my home office and can't really sit off axis.

 

[VicTorious1]

Forgot to mention I was gonna go with 4.1 eNZO's in the beggining and he was aware of it.

I think you've been made aware of the delivery delays and what the community largely feels about Tekton's business issues. Additionally, you are aware that some individuals believe that the design of the speakers may be flawed. Lastly, several owners have articulated their satisfaction with the Tekton speakers they've received. With that being said, I don't think anyone can say that you are not an informed buyer. You are using your money and have researched all of the potential issues. While adhering to the phrase caveat emptor, I think you should be confident in whichever decision you end up making. In the end, it will be you who is listening to these speakers.

 

[Irvrobinson]

1/3rd octave smoothing.

Good catch. IMO that makes these graphs nearly useless. I've often wondered why REW and OmniMic even include that alternative. 1/6th octave is about as much make-up as you want to apply. I've started using 1/12th exclusively, except when I was placing the sub, and I turned off smoothing altogether. Below 80Hz you really want to know about every hertz.

 

[NewHTbuyer]

Can you guys elucidate on what 1/3 octave smoothing means and how it influences how the graphs look? Thanks!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Can you guys elucidate on what 1/3 octave smoothing means and how it influences how the graphs look? Thanks!

Within the range of the smoothing window it applies an averaging function to the data. The wider the window the greater the visible impact on the graph. The influence of the smoothing function is to reduce the effect of narrow positive and negative peaks, where narrowness is defined in relation to the width of the smoothing window. Said another way, the smaller the smoothing window the less the visual distortion to the graphs.

 

[SearchofSub]

There is a not insignificant price difference between the Phil 2 and M Lore, approximately $3,000 vs $650, respectively. So I never anticipated that the M Lore would perform the same as the Phils. In addition, I chose the M Lore as opposed to the larger Lore because it uses a smaller driver (8" vs 10"), which is less susceptible to beaming and may essentially be operated similar to a full range driver. A 10" driver would likely having beaming issues prior to being crossed over to the tweeter. I'm not sure where Tekton crosses over the driver to the tweeter on the M-Lore, but I use my speakers essentially as monitors in my home office and can't really sit off axis.

When I spoke to Eric he did mention that the M-Lores were "more accurate" than the Lores. Perhaps the Lores are more accurate than the Pendragons as well.. due to the issues you talked about on this post.

I heard some "flat" speakers and to me personally, it traslates to my ears as lifeless and dull.

 

[shadyJ]

Here is a picture of a measured frequency response and than that same response smoothed out to 1/12 octave. 1/3 octave smoothing loses a lot more resolution than that 1/12 smoothing.

 

[Chu Gai]

What's Eric's definition of accurate?

 

[VicTorious1]

Can you guys elucidate on what 1/3 octave smoothing means and how it influences how the graphs look? Thanks!

Here's the trusty article I always refer to when discussing resolution, smoothing and spectral averaging. The ideal would be 1/20th octave smoothing and anything less than 1/12th octave smoothing doesn't provide any real information.

Audio Measurements: The Useful vs. the Bogus in Consumer Audio | Audioholics

 

[chaluga]

Design flaw and tradeoff, it's really just semantics. People tend to label certain tradeoffs as flaws when accuracy is compromised. I can't comment on what the designer was going for because I haven't read it nor have I heard any of the speakers in question. From what you describe I'd call it more of a flaw. That being said, just because I call it a flaw and you call it a design consideration doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy the sound or that I wouldn't for certain applications. I've grown to appreciate accuracy and at this point wouldn't spend money on something that wasn't pretty accurate, but that doesn't I haven't and don't enjoy certain speakers or systems that are "non-audiophile".

My main point about the Tektons isn't that no one should buy them, or that they sound horrific (at least I'm told they don't), it's that if you wanted a high sensitivity speaker there are much more accurate ones that will deliver all that the Tektons do for less money and question marks. Tack on the other baggage and it seems like an unnecessary risk from my POV. What it looks like from someone else's POV is for them to decide and it's their money to spend. If they choose to take the leap and are satisfied with the purchase I give them a big virtual pat on back (no sarcasm intended) and say good for you. I'm happy with what I've got, you're happy with what you've got, the end. I'm not here to bash Tekton, only to make sure it's an informed buying decision. These are the known and suspected issues. These are the problems people have had. The pro-reviews are a little suspect in some cases and purely subjective in others. These are your other options.

I don't have a problem with a dissenting opinion. Your critique actually lists some good points. It also is done in a way thats not putting down my choice and others to purchase what we did. I wish others would frame their argument like you do. Now to disagree with you a bit

I hear this term accurate.I know what it means. I know that it can be measured. When I look for "the sound" a speaker gives I am looking for a feeling, a sensation, a smile. I have gone to several Rush, AcDc, Tom Petty, Lenny Kravitz, and GnR concerts. I have heard songs like Back in Black, Limelight, and Civil War hundreds of times. In each of these tracks
their are guitar riffs that I love. In Tom Petty's A face in the crowd the background sounds, Lenny Kravitz's voice in Stand by your Woman. Like many I made a demo cd which I took to AV stores in my area and listened to every speaker in the 1k price tag. I know it will sound different at my home but I don't have the time or money to listen to 20 sets of speakers at home. Probably the best av store near where I am is the Hifi Centre. They have their gear broken down into six rooms, each at a different price point. I listened to several types including a few at around 1500-2000k. I also have a demo movie disc with a few scenes I love, like the opening of Gladiator with the arrows reigning down, etc.

For me accurate is hearing these moments and just feeling the music/movie. Even though I am over forty when it feels right it takes you back to when you were 18 and heard it for the first time. I can't physically measure this with anything other then a smile and the goose bumps on my neck. When I auditioned the speakers I made sure the sound level was consistant. WHen I researched online speakers in my price range 1k the tekton oriels/lore were noted for this alive feeling, like at a concert. Not just the concert loudness, but that feeling. If my price point was 2-3k I wouldn't have bought tekton because the pendragon is too huge for my living room and their are so many more options at that price point. I knew I was taking a bit of a risk with my oriels with the production times. Using paypal took the financial risk ( I could simply get my money back) but the time I invested waiting could be annoying. I ordered mine before many of the huge problems popped up on the forums.

After my speakers were broken in I played my demo disc. One could say that the goose bumps on my neck were induced by buyers confirmation or the need to feel good about what you bought. All that I can say is that if you knew me you would laugh. I am often called the most difficult guy to make happy and to rave about something is rare ; as my family and the over 5000 students I have taught in my career would know. I am very stubborn and hard to convince. I am the guy at the concert who is sitting down, not smoking weed (maybe I should) and only stands up to cheer maybe during one or two songs in the set. We bought a dog a year ago and i said that I will never clean up the poop. People said good luck with that, A year later and my kids have picked up every piece. Yeah I am a crusty old guy.

When I played the demo discs for music and movies I was happy. My wife asked if we were sending them back, and i said no. Six months later and I am still happy about my purchase but pissed off at Eric for screwing up and lying about his orders. I don't drink the tekton kool aid and when I look at the tekton threads I think its pretty evident of the possible downsides of this choice. For those who have received their speakers, most seem to be very happy. If Eric doesn't clean up his company he will go out of business.

I just bought a used parasound amp and next I need to get a pre-amp. Fuzz I appreciate the virtual pat on the back and I give one back for your thoughtful input . I read your other thread about using REW with Umik-1 mic (learned a lot) and next I am getting the EMotiva umc-200 so I can play around with the PEQ.

 

[VicTorious1]

When I spoke to Eric he did mention that the M-Lores were "more accurate" than the Lores. Perhaps the Lores are more accurate than the Pendragons as well.. due to the issues you talked about on this post.

I heard some "flat" speakers and to me personally, it traslates to my ears as lifeless and dull.

When people refer to "flat" speakers they are referring to "flat frequency response" speakers. The term "flat" as is used in "he's a good singer, but often sounds flat" is a completely different phrase. I'm not saying that's what you meant, but "flat" speakers shouldn't sound lifeless or dull unless the composer intended the music to be lifeless and dull. Flat speakers are true to the source material and replicate it as the composer/producer/engineer intended. Now if the composer/producer/engineer was using inaccurate speakers that did not have a flat frequency response during the recording of the source material, then listening to the recorded music on "flat" speakers (or any other speakers that did not have the same frequency response as those used by the composer/producer/engineer during recording), might provide a sound different than that intended by the author.

My Phils have a flat frequency response and are anything but dull or lifeless.

 

[Chu Gai]

Is going to live concerts with amplified music in venues that differ widely a preferred method for then determining the accuracy or whatever you want to call it of a speaker? IMHO, I think not so much since the performances vary so widely and a guitar for one sounds widely different for any number of reasons. I think a better way would be to go to unamplified performances such as classical performed in concert halls in order to make a more critical evaluation. Now I might be a bit older than some but no way did performances by a group like Pink Floyd sound the same or even similar enough when they played at Hofstra, Roosevelt Stadium, Giants Stadium, out where the NY Islanders played, and Carnegie Hall. The same goes for other such groups. Thoughts?

 

[ImcLoud]

I understand where guys are coming from with the "flat" argument, but sometimes you have to put down your $200 microphone and let your ears listen, a lot of the allure to my lores, for me is, that they remind me of being at the concert, maybe because they are made from pro audio equipment, but they have that sound that my ascends sierras dont, they have that some times raspy gritty definition that I would expect to hear at a small night club concert... As I said from the beginning if you are looking for something to measure and critique to death, get what others have already done that to and follow the heard, but if you want something different that sounds awesome with very little power {you can use a headphone amp}, then look into some of this guys stuff, what could it hurt...

I researched the wait time issue a little more, and it doesn't seem as bad a s some have said, but you do have to wait for them, I don't think that is because people hate these speakers,


In closing, last time I looked, I wrote the check to pay for my speakers, not a $90 microphone and sound analysis program, it was me that paid to listen to them and I would like to think that I am smart enough to know what I like, although my wife sometimes tells me what I like, I'll be damned if I'm going to let some graph dictate to me what sounds good to MY ears.... I have listened to speakers that I hated and then seen others saying they measured very "flat", where to me they were too powerful up top and the mid and bass regions sounded like they fighting it out, guys used to cause it "boxy" sounding, Im not sure what to call it, but I know when speakers sound like it, since I see it with a lot of speakers that have the built in 8-10" driver in the lower side of their cabinet... But anyway, are we still talking about tekton? another 12 pages, isn't there an 80 page topic already around here somewhere...

 

[chaluga]

IMCloud,
Are you happy with the umc-200 with your tektons ? What settings are you using in terms of Emo-Q or manual peq ? Did you just eq the sub or the whole 5.1 ? I see that the umc volume level goes 1-100 instead of db's. What is the loudest level you listen to with your xpa 5 connected ?
I am looking to buy a umc 200 in about two weeks. thanks for any input

 

[SearchofSub]

Just an update. I just spoke to Daniel at Tekton to finalize everything and I'll get my 4.1 M-Lores w/ custom sub and custom bipole sorrounds for $2,200.00 delivered. I thought it would be $2,500.00 but I guess Eric thought a 12' sub would do for my room(13x13x10). Sub is gonna ago down to 16-18hz.

Delivery date is 4-6 weeks. Will keep posted. Pat on the back for honest pricing/assesment to Tekton.

 

[chaluga]

Is going to live concerts with amplified music in venues that differ widely a preferred method for then determining the accuracy or whatever you want to call it of a speaker? IMHO, I think not so much since the performances vary so widely and a guitar for one sounds widely different for any number of reasons. I think a better way would be to go to unamplified performances such as classical performed in concert halls in order to make a more critical evaluation. Now I might be a bit older than some but no way did performances by a group like Pink Floyd sound the same or even similar enough when they played at Hofstra, Roosevelt Stadium, Giants Stadium, out where the NY Islanders played, and Carnegie Hall. The same goes for other such groups. Thoughts?

I don't think their is a preferred method for accuracy in terms of what your ear likes. I heard Coldplay the first time they came to Vancouver in a smallish 4000 seat orpheum setting that is used for classical concerts as well. Then they came back a year later and played in an arena setting with 16000 and I liked the arena setting sound better. My guess is that you would like the orpheum setting best. I am sure the gear was totally different for both performances but I have been to both venues with other artists and found the same thing. Then I went to a small cafe for a local band and the sound was incredible.

Another component to the accurate sound for the listener is their actual hearing level. I have a job where I get tested every year. I can look back now over 18 years and see my hearing scores. Luckily I always wear hearing protection at work, concerts. I don't listen at home louder then 100-105 db peaks. My hearing is fortunately still very good across the frequency spectrum. My wife has profound hearing loss, wears hearing aids ( hereditary) and on the plus side sometimes doesn't hear my little barbs

 

[chaluga]

Just an update. I just spoke to Daniel at Tekton to finalize everything and I'll get my 4.1 M-Lores w/ custom sub and custom bipole sorrounds for $2,200.00 delivered. I thought it would be $2,500.00 but I guess Eric thought a 12' sub would do for my room(13x13x10). Sub is gonna ago down to 16-18hz.

Delivery date is 4-6 weeks. Will keep posted. Pat on the back for honest pricing/assesment to Tekton.

I hope he meets those shipping guidelines. Would be nice to see him turn that around. Nothing subjective about that.