Switching Power Supplies in AV Receivers

Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
T-bar Codes (the circle enclosing "T" with bar on top) indicating a Japan-based contract manufacturer was used to build vintage Sansui products. The entire product would be made in a non-Sansui factory. Standard procedure with Japanese brands. Will not appear on products contracted to a factory outside Japan, and the mark is no longer used today, so typically not found on modern components. But the practice is exactly the same today.

Also: Kenwood System with T-bar Codes on two of three products, and unusually, identifying the two different factories that did the manufacturing under contract for Kenwood.

The Japanese Electronics industry employs one Engineer for every four manufacturing jobs. You don't have to think very hard or very long to figure out that these brands are designing products and contracting out most manufacturing. In many cases the brand has no company-owned factories, and never did, at all.
 

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gzubeck

Audioholic
"Small" companies are not going to sell 10,000 units of anything, let alone per year. Large companies probably wouldn't get that volume on any particular model that wasn't a bona fide sales leader, or series if they re-use the power supply. A company like Benchmark, who have a well known and respected product, turns over a few hundred DACs a year, and fewer of their other offerings. I remember Lexicon reported they sold exactly 32 copies of a CD player they had in the catalog during the product lifetime, and they have a robust professional installer dealer network.

The reality is our little hobby is not that lucrative for the manufacturers save for a few non-typically successful operations. Even companies like Harmon International makes their money from things like the OEM Automotive unit versus the consumer electronics divisions. The vast consolidation of brands we've seen over the last 10 years doesn't happen in an industry when companies are making money hand-over-fist.

Home Audio is a tough racket. Most enterprises start up because they love the product segment, not because it's a good business model. The vast majority don't even manufacture their own products. Oppo doesn't. And that is not new ... it was the model the Japanese used going back to the 1970's. Companies like Sansui and Kenwood didn't manufacture their own products even at that time. Look up "T Codes" ... the system that reveals who actually made a given product in Japan 50 years ago. It probably wasn't the name on the face plate, and it probably isn't a company you have even heard of. Audio firms are design bureaus who contract out actual manufacturing in most cases.

Frankly, it isn't that lucrative at the best of times. One hit product, or the lack of one, makes or breaks your bottom line. Panasonic recently announced that they will shed the divisions that fail to meet their net profit goals ... 5%.

It's also extremely competitive. $75 at manufacturer level translates to $375 at retail, even a direct-to-consumer model it would be $225. Can you sell a similar product to your competitors for that much higher price? If you can, and you're not a manufacturer right now, you're in the wrong business.
The question was rhetorical in nature to show a possibility. some consumer electronics areas are bigger and more lucrative. To give you an example I found a video of Ayre acoustics and they do 20 products a day. Giving a conservative estimate of 400 units per month thats 5,000 units of whatever worldwide sales...now mind you Ayre products are fairly expensive...pay attention to after the 4 minute mark....

 
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gzubeck

Audioholic
Here's another company that sells a few more units more than 32 per year... :rolleyes:

 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
You've chosen to post videos that are only viewable at the Vimeo site itself (or at least for some viewers of this forum). Not a complete roadblock, but if possible best avoided, as a courtesy to others.

Certainly some companies are more successful than others at volume sales, which doesn't imply that lower volume manufacturers are less successful, just that unit volume is not consistent across brands. Even the examples you posted are across a number of models where using the same Power Supply is unlikely.

But 10,000 is a LOT of units of ONE model. You would expect in order to limit the comparison to units with the exact same power supply, the volume would have to be higher still ... hard to say how much, but maybe 50,000/yr. Maybe more, maybe less, but definitely a lot more than merely 10,000.

I still say that your figures are too high in the vast majority of cases. Your premise that some are pocketing the difference in cost rather than lowering prices in a highly competitive market simply goes against the industry norms, and I don't see much evidence in the retail prices and in particular the street prices.

Probably more likely, and this is borne by more than 75 years of audio retailing, is the manufacturer will add features with the "extra" BoM money. The reason this is still the standard procedure is because it works at actually getting someone to pull out their wallet, which is the goal, after all.

Consumer Psychology is well understood and not much has changed since the 1950's. People are motivated to buy based on emotions, and one critical emotion marketers exploit is Fear. It's not just limited to over-the-counter medicine and body odour products. It is exploited in every product category, from new cars to ... well ... Audio.

The fear of not having some feature drives buyers to prefer complex products over simple ones. *

Few consumers are actually able to discern sonic attributes, and they are generally subtle features, which make them difficult to demonstrate, let alone market. If that were not true, reviewers and forums like this one would be of no earthly use; everyone would simply listen to the device, since sonics are the quality we actually use in an audio product, and buy the best sounding ones on the spot, which would be obvious to them. It is not obvious, and thus we have the market we do with the products we have.

* Back in the day, manufacturer's representatives, industry professionals and retail staff referred to these features as "bells and whistles", which meant features that did not add to the products sonic qualities, and in most cases degraded them. I don't know if the phrase is still in common use.

But given the choice, consumers inevitably chose the one with more over those with less. If you're trying to make a living, you either go along with it when choosing product lines, or go broke trying to sell the sonically superior ones. A good reseller was one that offered both and did his best to steer people in the right direction, but sold them what they wanted. If he didn't, they would just walk across the street and buy the inferior product anyway, which is a loss to him.

I am now WAY off topic, so I will end it at this last comment.
 
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gzubeck

Audioholic
You've chosen to post videos that are only viewable at the Vimeo site itself (or at least for some viewers of this forum). Not a complete roadblock, but if possible best avoided, as a courtesy to others.

Certainly some companies are more successful than others at volume sales, which doesn't imply that lower volume manufacturers are less successful, just that unit volume is not consistent across brands. Even the examples you posted are across a number of models where using the same Power Supply is unlikely.

But 10,000 is a LOT of units of ONE model. You would expect in order to limit the comparison to units with the exact same power supply, the volume would have to be higher still ... hard to say how much, but maybe 50,000/yr. Maybe more, maybe less, but definitely a lot more than merely 10,000.
The main site is DAR, http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/ I didn't know some countries are not authorized for vimeo as DAR is fairly international. So that's new to me. Whether it's 1,000, 5,000, or 10,000 its just an example of how savings can add up as the number gets larger. I was not shooting for any steadfast number. Let's end this here unless it involves more information on power supplies as we're hijacking the thread.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Agreed. My writing style is not especially chummy, but I enjoyed your comments, as much as I did composing my replies. Ideally some readers will have learned something from it, and can come to their own conclusions.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
The main site is DAR, http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/ I didn't know some countries are not authorized for vimeo as DAR is fairly international. So that's new to me.
If you pulled the video from another website, every time that video is viewed here, that first site pays for some of the bandwidth costs. It's not a huge expense for a few views, but since that host site has no control over the video used elsewhere, if the post ends up becoming "hot" on the web, those costs can rise to exceed the hosting site's bandwidth limit, causing the webhost to shut the site down until the bill is paid.

For that reason, many sites prohibit "hot-linking". So it's probably not a geoblock (regional restriction).

Vimeo has no problem with hotlinking ... it's part of their business model. So linking directly to the vimeo site would probably be no problem.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I started this thread a while ago, and nobody has succeeded to answer my question. I also asked D&M about it and no reply from them.

If Marantz have started to put switching power supplies in their flagship power amplifiers, isn't there a possibility that they are also currently installing some in their recently produced AVRs?

Someone who knows a technician with experience in servicing Marantz AVRs might be able to get an answer.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I started this thread a while ago, and nobody has succeeded to answer my question. I also asked D&M about it and no reply from them.

If Marantz have started to put switching power supplies in their flagship power amplifiers, isn't there a possibility that they are also currently installing some in their recently produced AVRs?

Someone who knows a technician with experience in servicing Marantz AVRs might be able to get an answer.
You're asking about the possibility of this happening- who would be qualified to answer questions like that?

Sure, it's possible, but are you really asking "Is Marantz decreasing the quality of their equipment by using SMPS in their flagship receivers?"?

Does it seem like a good idea to make a 'flagship' or any other piece worse than it was?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
You're asking about the possibility of this happening- who would be qualified to answer questions like that?

Sure, it's possible, but are you really asking "Is Marantz decreasing the quality of their equipment by using SMPS in their flagship receivers?"?

Does it seem like a good idea to make a 'flagship' or any other piece worse than it was?
I don't believe that the SMPS technology now means a decrease in quality. This technology has been existing for decades and used in medical equipment and computers.

It also has been used in several Crown and QSC pro amplifiers for many years. Pro audio equipment is known to be more reliable than audiophile stuff. If that technology was unreliable, pro audio manufacturers would not use it.

For instance, QSC have been using SMTP in their Digital Cinema Amplifiers since 1998. Some are operating in Class AB and the more powerful units in Class H. Those amplifiers are installed and going strong in many cinemas in the United States and in Canada. If that technology had not been reliable, wouldn't they have stopped using it?
By the way, this series of amps is manufactured in the United States.

Please refer to post #54 in this thread in which PENG indicates that the new $8000 flagship Marantz integrated amplifier uses that technology as well. This is why I have been questioning about this possibility with their AVRs.

It's obvious, there are many advantages in using the SMPS technolgy. Among them are lighter weight, lower noise floor, cooler operation and more efficient operation. Just the fact of the light weight means cheaper shipping costs for manufacturers and additional competitive edge.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I don't believe that the SMPS technology now means a decrease in quality. This technology has been existing for decades and used in medical equipment and computers.

It also has been used in several Crown and QSC pro amplifiers for many years. Pro audio equipment is known to be more reliable than audiophile stuff. If that technology was unreliable, pro audio manufacturers would not use it.

For instance, QSC have been using SMTP in their Digital Cinema Amplifiers since 1998. Some are operating in Class AB and some in Class H. Those amplifiers are installed and going strong in many cinemas in the United States and in Canada. If that technology had not been reliable, wouldn't they have stopped using it?
By the way, this series of amps is manufactured in the United States.

Please refer to post #54 in this thread in which PENG indicates that the new $8000 flagship Marantz integrated amplifier uses that technology as well. This is why I have been questioning about this possibility with their AVRs.

It's obvious, there are many advantages in using the SMPS technolgy. Among them are lighter weight, lower noise floor, cooler operation and more efficient operation. Just the fact of the light weight means cheaper shipping costs for manufacturers and additional competitive edge.
Just like anything else, there are advantages and disadvantages to SMPS.

For me, in general think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages from a performance and reliability aspect. Over the years, I have had many SMPS fail on me in computers and for lab instrumentation at work. On the other hand, I can't recall a single linear PS failure in my experience.

Of course, it depends on the application.
If I need/want cheap, lightweight, less heat, or portability, then SMPS becomes a no-brainer. If I have a permanent install, then linear likely makes more sense unless heat management is a concern.

So, for 2 channel music in my home, I will personally choose a linear supply and Class A or A/B every time. For home theater where I may have a stack of gear, possibly enclosed, and I may not be quite as critical on the listening, then SMPS and Class D makes a lot more sense.

So, that's the real question to answer: What's the goal? What's the best tool to accomplish the goal?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Just like anything else, there are advantages and disadvantages to SMPS.

For me, in general think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages from a performance and reliability aspect. Over the years, I have had many SMPS fail on me in computers and for lab instrumentation at work. On the other hand, I can't recall a single linear PS failure in my experience.

Of course, it depends on the application.
If I need/want cheap, lightweight, less heat, or portability, then SMPS becomes a no-brainer. If I have a permanent install, then linear likely makes more sense unless heat management is a concern.

So, for 2 channel music in my home, I will personally choose a linear supply and Class A or A/B every time. For home theater where I may have a stack of gear, possibly enclosed, and I may not be quite as critical on the listening, then SMPS and Class D makes a lot more sense.

So, that's the real question to answer: What's the goal? What's the best tool to accomplish the goal?
I beg to disagree with you with regard to the performance aspect of some amplifiers.

For instance, I've just acquired a QSC DCA 1222 amplifier in order to eventually actively bi-amp my 3 front channels. The two additional ones will be ordered this year. This amplifier has a switching power supply and operates in Class AB. It puts out high current and it can drive four 8 ohm speakers in parallel. How many audiophile amps can do the same?

I think that you should have a look at the specs of those Digital Cinema Amplifiers. They compare in performance to many expensive audiophile amplifiers and they are reliable. QSC would not be using them in theaters if they were not. Also note that those amps are not selling that cheap. The retail price for the DCA1222 is $910.

Anyways, I received the amplifier 3 days ago. I am at present using it with 3-way speaker enclosures which I built. It has a very detailed opened sound and drives the Dayton RSS subs to produce a very tight bass. It runs cool and the variable speed fan noise is not objectionable, as I'm sitting about 5 feet away from it. So far, I am really impressed with its performance, and I am sure it can compete with the expensive hi-fi gear and also at a lot lower cost.

I have nothing against the linear power supplies, but for the same money, I cannot get the same power and performance from an audiophile product. Their prices are way outside my budget, and a good portion of what their manufacturers are asking has to do with the finishing and the looks. Also, why should I pay more to get about the same performance?
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I beg to disagree with you with regard to the performance aspect of some amplifiers.

For instance, I've just acquired a QSC DCA 1222 amplifier in order to eventually actively bi-amp my 3 front channels. The two additional ones will be ordered this year. This amplifier puts out high current and it can drive four 8 ohm speakers in parallel. How many audiophile amps can do the same?

I think that you should have a look at the specs of those Digital Cinema Amplifiers. They compare to many expensive audiophile amplifiers and they are reliable. QSC would not be using them in theaters if they were not.

Anyways, I received the amplifier 3 days ago. It has a very detailed opened sound and drives my Dayton RSS subs to produce a very tight bass. It runs cool and the variable speed fan noise is not objectionable, as I'm sitting about 5 feet away from it. So far, I am really impressed with its performance, and I am sure it can compete with the expensive hi-fi gear at a lot lower cost.
Oh, I agree that QSC has some incredible engineers and some great products on the market. They were pretty heavily featured in an issue of the AudioXpress Voice Coil Magazine a few years ago.

Looks like you have your goal and you know how you want to achieve your goal. But, that doesn't mean that your approach will be my approach to reach my goal.

I am a big proponent of simple, elegant solutions. SMPS designs are neither simple nor elegant, I'm pretty sure we can agree there, right?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Oh, I agree that QSC has some incredible engineers and some great products on the market. They were pretty heavily featured in an issue of the AudioXpress Voice Coil Magazine a few years ago.

Looks like you have your goal and you know how you want to achieve your goal. But, that doesn't mean that your approach will be my approach to reach my goal.

I am a big proponent of simple, elegant solutions. SMPS designs are neither simple nor elegant, I'm pretty sure we can agree there, right?
Slipperybidness,

You replied to my post before I had the time to finish editing my text.

Just a note to tell you that I have nothing against the conventional linear supply, but all the good ones are found in amps that cost a lot more than a good pro audio amp. Why should I pay more to get about the same kind of performance? I also trust the reliability of QSC products.

Cheers,
André
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Slipperybidness,

You replied to my post before I had the time to finish editing my text.

Just a note to tell you that I have nothing against the conventional linear supply, but all the good ones are found in amps that cost a lot more than a good pro audio amp. Why should I pay more to get about the same kind of performance? I also trust the reliability of QSC products.

Cheers,
André
Yup, fair enough argument.

15 or 20 years ago, you likely wouldn't have been able to make that argument, or at least not as strongly.

By the same token, 15 or 20 years from now, I may not be able to make the same arguments either.
 
T

Tankman

Audioholic
Most AV Receiver manufacturers don't explain in detail what replaced the standard power supplies with massive transformers which represented most of the weight of the products several years ago.

Were those heavy power supplies all replaced by the more efficient, light and cooler-running switching power modules? This is what I believe is the case with the Marantz SR5010 receiver that I use.


Also, I noticed that, as compared to my previous NAD Flagship T763, the Marantz seems to put out a wider dynamic range. Yesterday, I was listening to an amazing performance of Beethoven's 4th symphony, from a 1967 recording with the Vienna Philharmonic under Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt. There wasn't the compression that I felt with the NAD amplifiers.


That more impressive dynamism most likely has to do with the more ample current to the audio power circuitry by changing the supply rails at least 100,000 times per second through a low impedance circuit.



Someone has any comments?
Very reliable switching power supplies are and have been around for quite some time. As for the 100,000.00 times thing? with being able to deliver power to the rail or rails..umm..maybe it changes the Damping Factor some? lo...
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Very reliable switching power supplies are and have been around for quite some time. As for the 100,000.00 times thing? with being able to deliver power to the rail or rails..umm..maybe it changes the Damping Factor some? lo...
For your info, with the QSC DCA 1222 which I bought, the what QSC call the PowerLight Technology, high current switching devices draw over 10,000 watts of peak power from the main energy reservoir, which is replenished directly from the AC line for maximum stiffness. Conventional amplifiers must isolate the energy bank with a large AC transformer which weakens the flow of current, allows greater sag under load, and produces hum. The PowerLight supply performs voltage conversion at 230,000 times/sec., allowing better coupling through a much smaller isolation transformer. This amp has a Damping Factor of >500 with an 8 ohm load. It will also drive a speaker load as low as 1.6 ohms.
 
T

Tankman

Audioholic
For your info, with the QSC DCA 1222 which I bought, the what QSC call the PowerLight Technology, high current switching devices draw over 10,000 watts of peak power from the main energy reservoir, which is replenished directly from the AC line for maximum stiffness. Conventional amplifiers must isolate the energy bank with a large AC transformer which weakens the flow of current, allows greater sag under load, and produces hum. The PowerLight supply performs voltage conversion at 230,000 times/sec., allowing better coupling through a much smaller isolation transformer. This amp has a Damping Factor of >500 with an 8 ohm load. It will also drive a speaker load as low as 1.6 ohms.
Could care less about the specs, How the amp sounds? Flat? sterile sounding? Many Tube amps..will sound a 100,000.00 times better and they don't have switching power supplies with a much better >damping factor (○○)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't believe that the SMPS technology now means a decrease in quality. This technology has been existing for decades and used in medical equipment and computers.

It also has been used in several Crown and QSC pro amplifiers for many years. Pro audio equipment is known to be more reliable than audiophile stuff. If that technology was unreliable, pro audio manufacturers would not use it.

For instance, QSC have been using SMTP in their Digital Cinema Amplifiers since 1998. Some are operating in Class AB and some in Class H. Those amplifiers are installed and going strong in many cinemas in the United States and in Canada. If that technology had not been reliable, wouldn't they have stopped using it?
By the way, this series of amps is manufactured in the United States.

Please refer to post #54 in this thread in which PENG indicates that the new $8000 flagship Marantz integrated amplifier uses that technology as well. This is why I have been questioning about this possibility with their AVRs.

It's obvious, there are many advantages in using the SMPS technolgy. Among them are lighter weight, lower noise floor, cooler operation and more efficient operation. Just the fact of the light weight means cheaper shipping costs for manufacturers and additional competitive edge.
I know that, but your question is almost impossible to answer- of course it's possible, but it won't happen until it makes financial sense. However, there's a big perception problem- consumers equate weight with quality too often. OTOH, stiff HDMI cables frequently make positioning a BluRay player on a shelf almost impossible because A) the feet don't stick to the shelf and B) the player is too light for sticky feet to do any good.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yup, fair enough argument.

15 or 20 years ago, you likely wouldn't have been able to make that argument, or at least not as strongly.

By the same token, 15 or 20 years from now, I may not be able to make the same arguments either.
I hope you are right, because linear PS really has to go eventually for their disadvantages in terms of weight and efficiency. I would probably still prefer class A if I can manage the heat (I don't even like hot summer days:D) 20 years from now, but I hope 99.999% of the population will go with something of much better efficiency that still produce hifi sound quality. Everything being equal, I still want near 0 distortions of any kind, knowing full well that I am unable to discern the difference in sound quality regardless but I also know that is just being silly.
 
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