Subwoofer Suggestions ?

[motogp34]

my room is 17/22/9
should i get 2 sub 12`s or 2 sub 15`s ?

does anyone know how the DD+ compare to the sub12/15 ?

 

[bikdav]

That room is pretty sizable. If you have space for them, I'd go with the two 15s. If space is a problem due to furniture and A/V gear configuration, go with the 12s. The only thing that you might be "sacrificing" is a few hardly noticeable decibals of low frequency loudness.

 

[j_garcia]

That room is a bit smaller than mine and the Epik Empire handles it with no problem. I had a single 15" in my room previously, and it also did quite well, but the dual 15s in the Empire do even better.

 

[GranteedEV]

my room is 17/22/9
should i get 2 sub 12`s or 2 sub 15`s ?[/qupte]

If it's closed, your room is medium sized, and if it's open, it's probably much larger than those dimensions.

Either choice will be overpriced and underpeforming.

does anyone know how the DD+ compare to the sub12/15 ?

I would expect it to outperform the paradigm subs, but still underperform on a grand basis.



For this kind of money, If I were you, I'd be looking at two of these:

For a closed room:
Funky Waves

For an open room:
Funky Waves

 

[timoteo]

I agree that the subs you are inquiring about are overpriced per their performance. I had a demo done at a highend b&m shop with the DD15+. It was very good of course, but for the $ i was expecting more. The room was sealed & was approx 14x16x8.

Dont get me wrong, it sounded good. But you could get a TC 18" Ultra in a FunkyWaves enclosure for less & get much better performance. So i agree with the previous post.

Or do what i did & get an HSU VTF-15h with an MBM-12. This combo continues to give me chills in my 14x20x8 room that is open to other large areas.

Another great option would be the SVS PB-13 Ultra for about $500 more than the 2 HSU subs mentioned.

HSU: VTF-15h & MBM-12 = $1379 plus tax & shipping
SVS: PB-13U = $2000 shipped i think
TC 18"'in FW box= $3120 shipped in U.S

All these are great alternatives to the subs you were asking about. I listed them in order of pricing.

Sorry but i cant comment on the Sub 12/15 no experience with that one. I will say however, that is the same concept HSU has with the above mentioned subs. The benefit of the HSU is that with seperate enclosures you can place each in the most optimal location & minimise room modes. The mid-bass being near to you & the low bass across the room. FYI

 

[timoteo]

I made a mistake, i thought the Sub 12/15 was Velodyne's sub that has a 12&15 driver in the same enclosure. I think its actually a 12&18 in that sub Anyways...that is what i was reffering to in my last post. I now know you meant the Paradigm subs. Haha

I cant comment on those Paradigms, ive never heard them.

Id go dual 15" over dual 12" everytime.

 

[Irvrobinson]

my room is 17/22/9
should i get 2 sub 12`s or 2 sub 15`s ?[/qupte]

If it's closed, your room is medium sized, and if it's open, it's probably much larger than those dimensions.

Either choice will be overpriced and underpeforming.



I would expect it to outperform the paradigm subs, but still underperform on a grand basis.



For this kind of money, If I were you, I'd be looking at two of these:

For a closed room:
Funky Waves

For an open room:
Funky Waves

I investigated the FW stuff, and it looks like awesome furniture, but no dealers means you can't listen first or even check the real build quality, so those prices seem to have a lot of assumed risk built into them. Subwoofer specs are often too good to be true, so I'm not so sure I'd spend that much sight unseen or sound unheard. Some of those 18" FW box sizes seem pretty small for non-servo designs. And the TC Sounds driver with the cloth-roll suspension... nice 1950s cone technology.

They might be awesome, but how do you know before you buy?

 

[GranteedEV]

I investigated the FW stuff, and it looks like awesome furniture, but no dealers means you can't listen first or even check the real build quality,

You're correct. You're purchasing a sub that you can't listen to first, or even check the real build quality. If listening first if your determinant of a purchase then that's your call, but there's plenty of documented FW builds online that show you the build quality involved:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1354003&page=2
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1313021
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1283555

so those prices seem to have a lot of assumed risk built into them.

On the contrary, those prices have huge savings associated with them. if this sub were sold in B&M by the typical brands, you'd be looking at over 10k. I was looking at the price for the JL Audio Gotham = 13k and couldn't help laugh my *** off.

Not only would one LMS5400 based sub run with a gotham (beat it?), but for that much money you can get four, which has much better in room frequency response and much more headroom.

Subwoofer specs are often too good to be true, so I'm not so sure I'd spend that much sight unseen or sound unheard.

Luckily not one person here could care a smidgen about subwoofer "specs". We're all about actual measured performance andd the LMS5400 is tried and tested:

DIY TC Sounds LMS-5400 18" sealed 100L - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

If anything, I'd say the paradigm and velodyne are the real gamble. You really think your ears are a good SPL/extension/distortion/group delay/room gain/ringing measurement tool? You really think an audition room and audition setup are indicative of YOUR room and a true PROPER setup that isn't designed to sell a subwoofer?

It seems people come here asking for advice pretty often and then buy mediocre subs because they can get it at a dealer (sometimes at "discount" ) or because they can hear it. If you fit the bill, then go ahead and take your pick of overpriced or mediocrity (and sometimes both).

At some point you really have to consider all the research about low frequency reproduction that tells us how to maximize the SQ of our systems. Given the choice between a single Velodyne DD18+ at $5500 and a HSU Quad Drive at $4000 i`d consider it a no-brainer as to which option will sound better; not even factoring cost in.

Some of those 18" FW box sizes seem pretty small for non-servo designs.

Servo has nothing to do with box size. What servo does is correct non linearities and isn't without its tradeoffs. Yes a driver will be less linear in a higher qtc box where variations caused by voice coil heating are more signfiicant to its frequency response and could use correction... but an LMS5400 sealed in 90L actually has a (low) QTC = .63 and is going to be more linear than even servo drivers can hope for, thanks to its variable density voice coil which deals with issues of linearity ::at the magnetic gap::, rather than ::at the amplifier::. I showed the measurements earlier of what it can do, and bear in mind those are continuous measurements @ 2m. - at 1M and PEAK (which is basically a more standardized measurement) you can add 9db to each of those values. I'm willing to bet those Paradigm/Velodyne boxes are qtc = 1.0 type deals which yes servo will correct but not efficiently.

And the TC Sounds driver with the cloth-roll suspension... nice 1950s cone technology.

Clearly you`re an expert on driver design.

The LMS5100 (not the 5400) is a pro audio woofer designed to not only dig pretty deep for a high sensitivity driver but also reach high in frequency. for a driver to sound its best you want to take surround resonances at midrange frequencies away. Foam/Rubber surrounds are fantastic for a long throw subwoofer but they do have arguably audible resonances higher up in frequency when used as midwoofers.

Different applications have different methodologies used. Unless you know what you`re talking about its best to keep such comments to yourself. Likewise with cone material, whose effect at low frequencies is identically pistonic, and far more relavant in terms of determining driver fs / sensitivity

 

[Irvrobinson]

On the contrary, those prices have huge savings associated with them. if this sub were sold in B&M by the typical brands, you'd be looking at over 10k. I was looking at the price for the JL Audio Gotham = 13k and couldn't help laugh my *** off.

You can be as cynical and obnoxious as you want, but your point is incorrect. The huge savings are only available if you take a risk and they pay off. There are lots of great products available only by taking a chance, but it is difficult to know if they're right for you unless you try it. For example, I heard raves about the Linkwitz Labs Orion, but when I finally heard them (in a private home) I found they weren't right for *me*. Legacy Audio speakers years ago looked great on the internet, in person less so. Like I said, the FW products may be awesome, but my advice is still to look and listen before spending thousands.

 

[GranteedEV]

You can be as cynical and obnoxious as you want, but your point is incorrect. The huge savings are only available if you take a risk and they pay off. There are lots of great products available only by taking a chance, but it is difficult to know if they're right for you unless you try it.

We're talking about subwoofers here. We know what's relevant (Frequency Response/SPL/Extension/Distortion/Multiples) so it only makes sense to purchase four of the ones that measure best in terms of extension/power compression and then EQ the global response to preference (which for myself would be flat in room).

But if you want to make it complex and subjective, you can go ahead and do that, even though such an audition isn't free of significant variables that shape our perception - namely the audition room and audition setup, whereas standardized ground plane testing is free of such issues.

For example, I heard raves about the Linkwitz Labs Orion, but when I finally heard them (in a private home) I found they weren't right for *me*.

I find that interesting, considering you are an owner of Revel Salon2s. Another owner here, of the same speakers, considers the Orions to sound extremely similar to the Salon2s in the same room. So the question becomes: is he just deaf or was your audition of the Orion biased by the acoustics of the room in which you made said audition?

 

[cpp]

Funky Waves $3580 Plus shipping, hum

Maybe the op needs to provide a budget ?

 

[Irvrobinson]

We're talking about subwoofers here. We know what's relevant (Frequency Response/SPL/Extension/Distortion/Multiples) so it only makes sense to purchase four of the ones that measure best in terms of extension/power compression and then EQ the global response to preference (which for myself would be flat in room).

But if you want to make it complex and subjective, you can go ahead and do that, even though such an audition isn't free of significant variables that shape our perception - namely the audition room and audition setup, whereas standardized ground plane testing is free of such issues.

I find that interesting, considering you are an owner of Revel Salon2s. Another owner here, of the same speakers, considers the Orions to sound extremely similar to the Salon2s in the same room. So the question becomes: is he just deaf or was your audition of the Orion biased by the acoustics of the room in which you made said audition?

I'm not trying to make anything complex, I'm just advocating that a person look at the product and listen to it before they buy. I'm not sure what you're advocating.

Your needlessly vituperative remark about my decision not to buy the Linkwitz Orion, asserting that either AcuDefTechGuy was deaf or my listening test was flawed is silly. I don't know what your problem is, but you clearly have one. Too bad, because with a more mature attitude you might be a technical mentor to others here, but instead you're just acting like a jackass.

As for the Orions, I heard them in an awesome, high-ceiling room. They were a pair of Orion+ (3.2.1) built by Wood Artistry, driven by the recommended ATI amp. I liked them a lot. The Orions have a bass quality that is very engaging, especially for well-recorded solo piano, for example. In this particular regard, better than any box speaker I've ever heard. At the time I was cross-shopping and had recently auditioned the Sound Lab A-1PX and the Salon2. There were two aspects of the sound of the Orion that didn't excite me. First, I'm very sensitive to the sound of cymbals because I live with a drummer. I know what a cymbal sounds like in a lot of different venues, and I thought the Salon2 had a very discernible advantage in cymbal reproduction compared to the Orion. Someone else might not be so critical of the highs and might be more taken by the unique bass performance, and that doesn't make them or me deaf for that matter. It is a matter of preference and priorities.

Secondly, I liked the imaging performance of the Salon2s better than the Orion's. There was more specificity in the placement of the phantom instruments, and especially voices, and I liked the Salon2's overall image presentation more. The owner of the Orions subsequently updated his speakers to Revision 3, and he claims the upgrade improved imaging substantially. Unfortunately, he lives about 500 miles away and I haven't had a chance to hear them since.

Nonetheless, I think the Orion is a great speaker and was a good value at about $9K with the ATI amp. At ~$15K without amps for the Orion 4 perhaps it is a different class of decision, especially when arranging a listening session involves contacting a current owner or renting Sigfried's vacation home.

 

[funky waves]

Funky Waves $3580 Plus shipping, hum

Maybe the op needs to provide a budget ?

FYI, we have just developed a new 18" driver, that we are building in house, we will now be offering standard in our 18.0 and 18.3. The overall performance has some of the benefits of both the Pro5100 and LMS5400 driver we have been using, overall it is a more well rounded performer, also the cost is a little less, so the 18.3 we can now do for $3600 delivered to most US locations, with our new driver, passive radiators, and 2400 watt DSP amplifier. The 18.0 will be $2870 delivered in the US. The TC sounds drivers still have their strong points and we will still be offering/recommending them as options, depending on the application.

As for a subwoofers subjective sound quality, some people prefer subwoofers with slightly higher distortion as they can "sound" better to them. Some feel that very low distortion subwoofers sound to lean/dry. Everyone has their preferences and there is nothing wrong with that. That said we at Funk Audio strive to provide the lowest distortion highest output(for their respective sizes and prices) subwoofers possible, the LMS5400 from TC Sounds has been proven to be one of the lowest distortion drivers on the planet. To some it sounds too dry/lean, however I must put this out there; It is much easier to make a low distortion subwoofer sound like a higher distortion subwoofer(especially with DSP controls), than it is to make a high distortion subwoofer sound like a low distortion subwoofer. So to buy a proven low distortion subwoofer offers little "risk", imo.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So to buy a proven low distortion subwoofer offers little "risk", imo.

Thank you for joining this thread.

I can see how, as the vendor, you believe there's little risk in buying what you perceive to be a very high quality and well performing product. But for those of us mostly unfamiliar with your company and products, there is risk. Sending you, in a foreign country to most of us (however a very friendly and civilized one), $3600 or so and trusting that the product is everything advertised is an act of faith to some extent. Most reviews are very positive, most vendor web sites make products look great, all designers make claims about awesomely performing products. Some are accurate, and I'm not saying yours aren't, but some aren't.

Have you considered promoting a network of current owners willing to provide demos, like Linkwitz does?

 

[cpp]

So to buy a proven low distortion subwoofer offers little "risk", imo.

Know doubt you make a functional product but for the OP to invest money in something they have not heard is a leap of faith rather than a risk

If the OP provided a budget a lot of these discussions could be of more benefit to the op.

 

[its phillip]

Meh. Buying ID has always carried that risk - very hard to demo unless you go with a brand like Aperion Audio who will pay for shipping both ways. The solution is to
1) use a credit card for your own protection
2) buy products that are well regarded/reviewed

 

[Splatman2]

I second that. Good reminded advice. We sometimes get so caught up and excited about the new products we want and forget about who or where it may be coming from. Be careful...