Subwoofer distances

JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Can somebody please tell me why automatic set ups in receivers set the subwoofers further away than they really are ? I do not have nor know how to use a RTA. I have two SUBS. A Klipsch RSW-15. And another Klipsch R-115SW. MY Yamaha RX-Z9 auto set up set the back sub at 10 ft away which is right , however the front sub the RSW-15 is only 12-13 ft away. The auto set up sets this one at either 19.6 or 19.2 ft away why? The volume level on the back of the subs is set to half. In the Z9 it is set to 0 for the back sub which is also half. The front sub the RSW-15 is set to -6.5 in the Z9 and again half on the sub PLEASE HELP. I'm going crazy trying to get both these subs to work well with my mains, which are KLipsch RF-7II. All my speakers are set to small and subs crossed over at 80hz. Thank you !!
 
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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
The only problem you've stated is that the distance values were not correct. Can you not adjust them manually?
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Yea I can, however iv heard so many different things . Like for example the receivers put subs a lot further back than they are to make up for phase problems . Is that true ? Yamaha says that's not right. I have measured with a tape measure and put those in.. Just wondered if that was the best way ? Or is there some truth to setting the distance a lot further than they really are
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
The levels that were set, I thought were off too, although I can check with my SPL METER But I want to make sure I get the distance Perfect. I just want to know the best way to do this. if you use a tape measure is that the Best way or like I said. Is there truth to letting the receiver do it even tho it's setting the sub distance further than it really is ? How did you do this? Gene if you see this please chime in to. Thank you.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
My Audyssey measurement was off for one of my subs too. I left it alone. To my thinking, Audyssey is capable of detecting sound wave peaks and valleys. It sets the distance as close as possible to accurate, but varies one to account for proper wave timing, (possibly affected by room geometry and furniture). I don't know how it does that. Maybe by delaying the signal to one it effectively positions it closer/farther. Just guessing here.

But it's not a guess that Audyssey is more accurate than my ears. I can adjust volume to taste, but stuff like distance and phase I will leave alone. Just my .02
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Thank you for your response. I think I will just run my Yamaha RX-Z9. YPAO for distance, everything else I did manually , I'll just have to make sure my subs are at 80db like all my other speakers or should I just run the test ? When I did the level testing I used a radio shack digital SPL meter, on a tripod with the receiver turned up to about -9.0 so I could achieve 80 db then just made sure everything was 80db . Before I did this tho I put all the speakers in the middle of there adjustments so I wasnt just boosting or cutting. Except for the center that was at plus 5 . So everything is on. Well except for the subs. So I'll let YPAO. Do the distances I guess. SUB distances should not be this HARD.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… SUB distances should not be this HARD.
But they often are :D. This is the dreaded room effect. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Placement

Placement
In a typical rectangular listening room, the hard, parallel surfaces of the walls, floor and ceiling cause primary acoustic resonance nodes in each of the three dimensions: left-right, up-down and forward-backward. Furthermore, there are more complex resonance modes involving three, four, five and even all six boundary surfaces combining to create standing waves. Low frequencies excite these modes the most, since long wavelengths are not much affected by furniture compositions or placement. The mode spacing is critical, especially in small and medium size rooms like recording studios, home theaters and broadcast studios. The proximity of the loudspeakers to room boundaries affects how strongly the resonances are excited as well as affecting the relative strength at each frequency. The location of the listener is critical, too, as a position near a boundary can have a great effect on the perceived balance of frequencies. This is because standing wave patterns are most easily heard in these locations and at lower frequencies, below the Schroeder frequency – typically around 200–300 Hz, depending on room size.

It is possible (I'm guessing here) that your receiver came up with the 19+ foot estimate when your second sub was really 12 feet away because the sound reflected off a wall was louder than sound coming directly from the sub. That path, including the wall (ceiling or floor) bounce, was about 19 feet.

If your sub has a polarity switch on it, you might try the YPAO routine with reversed polarity on that sub. It may or may not work differently.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
I had both subs set to 0 for polarity . In the YAMAHA, it's set to normal before I ran the test . Both subs are LFE so I'm using the crossover in the receiver I have also turned the crossover on both of the subs all the way to there highest crossover point like we are taught . After the test was all done, I messed with polarity in the Z9 and ( left sub reversed yielded more bass . Less bass with R reverse and also I had a R AND L REVERSE. . again after test, L reverse had more bass
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I had both subs set to 0 for polarity . In the YAMAHA, it's set to normal before I ran the test . Both subs are LFE so I'm using the crossover in the receiver I have also turned the crossover on both of the subs all the way to there highest crossover point like we are taught . After the test was all done, I messed with polarity in the Z9 and ( left sub reversed yielded more bass . Less bass with R reverse and also I had a R AND L REVERSE. . again after test, L reverse had more bass
Not sure if I am following completely, but I would suggest you try running YPAO after switching the polarity.
IOW, reset receiver to before YPAO, adjust polarity on subs for best sound, then run YPAO. You (theoretically) should not make any changes to phase after YPAO.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Now there is a Normal option too. In the Z9. I've always left the polarity switches on the back of the subs set to zero
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Not sure if I am following completely, but I would suggest you try running YPAO after switching the polarity.
IOW, reset receiver to before YPAO, adjust polarity on subs for best sound, then run YPAO. You (theoretically) should not make any changes to phase after YPAO.
Ok. That's what I've always done. Thank you. I've always left the polarity on the subs themselves alone set to 0 . The Z9 is set to normal in the receiver . After YPAO IV Switched it To the one that yielded more bass which seems to be L reverse . So you are saying select L reverse in the Z9 than run YPAO?
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Or should I set the polarity on the SUB THEMSELVES. And leave the Z9 set to NORMAL polarity, then run YPAO .?
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The second one.
Do everything you can to tune your room and speakers/subs prior to ypao.
Does ypao have the ability to address the phases of you subs individually (used not to). If not, you definitely need to optimize prior to ypao.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Yea the Z9. Has independent volume for each sub, and trim level and phase. The phase feature Is as follows. NORMAL, L reverse, R- reverse and last L AND R reverse together ..
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Ok so I will do The polarity on the subs instead of in the Z9 Thank you
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Yea the Z9. Has independent volume for each sub, and trim level and phase. The phase feature Is as follows. NORMAL, L reverse, R- reverse and last L AND R reverse together ..
Nice!
Doesn't it automatically set these parameters when you run Ypao?
Or is it manual only?
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
When you run YPAO is sets up sub distances and levels . I'm not sure if it does phase. I think it does. I'll let u know tomorrow. I'm going to run YPAO again. This time turning the subs down a little. . It's just weird that my back sub is 10ft away. And YPAO is right on with that one, however the front sub is 12-13 ft and YPAO says its 19.2ft away. Do u still recommend doing polarity on the sub or should I do it in the receiver before running YPAO ?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
When you run YPAO is sets up sub distances and levels . I'm not sure if it does phase. I think it does. I'll let u know tomorrow. I'm going to run YPAO again. This time turning the subs down a little. . It's just weird that my back sub is 10ft away. And YPAO is right on with that one, however the front sub is 12-13 ft and YPAO says its 19.2ft away. Do u still recommend doing polarity on the sub or should I do it in the receiver before running YPAO ?
Do it on the sub, then run YPAO.
My understanding is that setting distance and phase are the same thing. Delaying a speaker can put it in phase.
It will be interesting what YPAO gives you for distance after you switch the phase at the sub.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Ok. I'll let you know. I'll do the level, and distance on YPAO . And before I run the test, I'll put the levels in the receiver for the subs at -5 so there both in the middle of there adjustment range . Maybe there just to loud for the mic the way iv been starting off . And in the receiver I'll make polarity Normal, while only switching the the front subs polarity to 180 before running the test. And I will probably turn the volume down on the subs as well as in the receiver, so instead of being at half on the subs I'll turn them down a quarter on each . I will only switch polarity on the front sub. Not back. Numerous times left reverse has always sounded better Yielding more bass . Which is that sub in the front which YPAO says is 19.2 ft away
 
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