Subwoofer application musical v.s. home theater

Smoothsound · Mar 4, 2003

A little information and education please.  I take it that there is a difference in the intergration of a subwoofer into a system dependent upon a musical or home theater application.
Please give examples of both in the $200 range.

Yamahaluver · Mar 5, 2003

Smoothsound : A little information and education please.  I take it that there is a difference in the intergration of a subwoofer into a system dependent upon a musical or home theater application.
Please give examples of both in the $200 range.

Not any difference that I know of but for home theater the sub is attached to the sub out of the reciever and for pure musical app it is usualy attached to the power out of the amplifier and then the sub's cross overs route the power to the main speakers.

Not much choice under $200 unless you are looking for second hand stuff. Only Cerwin Vega makes one at around $175 but it is a non powered passive one.

Guest · Mar 6, 2003

And no matter what any salesman, company rep, or reviewer tries to tell you, a hertz is a hertz is a hertz.  There is no such thing as a "fast" or "slow" sub; there are only good and bad designs.

In your price range, you may find some acceptable subs from Sony and Yamaha.  Good luck!

Guest · Mar 6, 2003

FYI:
Point and click over to saturdayaudio.com and to the DEALS page and point your peepers at the PSB SubZero for $199.

Khellandros66 · May 28, 2003

For the price range it is hard to beat Yamaha's YST-SW305 which costs $180+ on Etronic.com

It features
dual 8 inch woofers w/ rubber surrounds
200w RMS amp
Servo Technology
20Hz-170Hz -10dB
I have tested it to about 27Hz +/-3dB, and 22Hz +/-6dB
using a computer and software where I can generate individual tones  in 1Hz steps

Yamahaluver · May 30, 2003

Khellandros66 : For the price range it is hard to beat Yamaha's YST-SW305 which costs $180+ on Etronic.com

It features
dual 8 inch woofers w/ rubber surrounds
200w RMS amp
Servo Technology
20Hz-170Hz -10dB
I have tested it to about 27Hz +/-3dB, and 22Hz +/-6dB
using a computer and software where I can generate individual tones in 1Hz steps

Khellandros66,

I agree with you on the value of the Yamaha subs. With their active servo technology, they offer big bang for bucks and can generate some serious bass from small space.

If you get a chance, check out Yamaha's YST-800/1500 and post your results here.

Audioholics · May 31, 2003

Guest : And no matter what any salesman, company rep, or reviewer tries to tell you, a hertz is a hertz is a hertz. There is no such thing as a "fast" or "slow" sub; there are only good and bad designs.

I've never had a salesman say this to me, but there is certainly a difference between an efficient sub, and an inefficient one.

For example, the rubber surround on my SPL-800 requires a much more powerful amplifier to drive the speker. If you simply push the cone ina and out you will realize that it is quite stiff.

My old (bye-bye) CHT-12 sub has a cheap, foam surround - and that speaker is quite efficient, requireing less power to drive. Push that cone in and out and it moves quite freely.

Now, while not necessarily being "fast" or "slow" the SPL-800 has MUCH greater control over sound, and is a "tighter" sub. providing a higher level of performance before distorting. The CHT-12 achieved lower frequencies tyhan the SPL-800, but the SPL sub was far FAR superior for music and home theatre.

What does any of this have to do with a $2000 sub choice? Absolutely nothing. In that price range, your best bet is to circumvent salemen altogether and go for a used deal on eBay. While I eventually outdid the CHJT sub, I would recommend it (used) over anything you could find for $200 in retail.

spiffnme · Jun 18, 2003

Guest : And no matter what any salesman, company rep, or reviewer tries to tell you, a hertz is a hertz is a hertz. There is no such thing as a "fast" or "slow" sub; there are only good and bad designs.

In your price range, you may find some acceptable subs from Sony and Yamaha. Good luck!

The terms "fast" and "slow" in regards to subs isn't in any way referring to hertz. It's a description of the sound.

I've listened to many, many subs in which the sound of the sub, simply didn't keep up with the pace of the song. This can be a problem especially with faster paced electronica music, in which there is often very fast paced bass.

This problem is of course due to design flaws, but to say that some subs aren't "faster" than others is misleading. Soundwise there certainly are.

Finally I also agree at $200, you're going to need to look into some used gear if you want something good.

Guest · Jun 18, 2003

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> The terms "fast" and "slow" in regards to subs isn't in any way referring to hertz.  It's a description of the sound.  

I've listened to many, many subs in which the sound of the sub, simply didn't keep up with the pace of the song.  This can be a problem especially with faster paced electronica music, in which there is often very fast paced bass.

This problem is of course due to design flaws, but to say that some subs aren't "faster" than others is misleading.  Soundwise there certainly are.</td></tr></table>

I think you might be attributing qualities to what you hear that don't really exist.  I would say the primary effect you describe is due to harmonics, distortion, and phase anomolies,  but not "Speed".  The terms "fast" and "slow" with respect to bass driver output don't really exist.

Audioholics · Jun 18, 2003

Bruce,

How do you refer to the characteristic differences between an efficient sub with foam surround, to say a less efficient, higher-powered sub with a rubber surround?

Tightness and punch are some adjectives I could think of, speed may be another term, perhaps used loosely to explain the overall damping factor of the sub (you mention harmonics, distortion and phase anomolies).

With regards to "speed" what is it the particular definition of 'speed' that salesman use which renders the term incorrect? Obviously this is a point of contention and I'd like to understand a bit more of the back-story.

Guest · Jun 18, 2003

hawke,

The speed of sound is fixed, and two different woofer designs are not going to send the sound wave of a specific frequency into the room at different speeds.

Essentially what happens with a surround that isn't controlled as well (surround material, damping factor of amp, voice-coil, servo motor, bass reflex port vs. sealed, etc.) is that you get additional harmonics at other frequencies that muddy-up the clarity of the bass. It's got nothing to do with "speed".

Audioholics · Jun 18, 2003

It just sounds like terminology issues to me. Certainly, nobody's talking about the speed of sound here (nor were the salesmen I'd warrant).

I'll avoid the term.

Guest · Jun 19, 2003

hawke,

IMO tightness and punch are directly related to how much unwanted harmonics (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc) and/or frequency peaks/nulls are introduced into the output stream.  Various designs deal with these additions in different ways; foam vs. rubber surrounds, bigger vs. smaller magnets and voice coils, servo motors, amp EQ, bass reflex vs. sealed vs. infinite baffle, vs. dual push-pull drivers, etc.

The most important but most misunderstood influence (by end users)  is room modes, but they all have an influence.

Audioholics · Jun 19, 2003

Do you have a favorite design methodology?

Guest · Jun 19, 2003

hawke,
Yea, Infinite Baffle  or IB,  see pictures here

But, it typically requires an enclosure (in the attic) to mount diametrically opposing subs (2 or 4 drivers) with their backs open to a very large space (like an attic) with just a small grill opening into the listening room.  

Problem is you need to own the house to cut a hole in the ceiling.

Other than that no.  Just one that has low distortion and good low frequency extension.  My current sub(s) are not ideal, but very clean and musical.

Rob Babcock · Jun 19, 2003

Actually, "fast" or "slow" to describe the sound of a sub is a buzzword I've heard (marketing) departments throw around more times than I can count.  Bill Duddleston of Legacy somewhat sarcastically but accurately quiped, "If bass was faster it would be treble."

As for the Yammie sub, I actually have it on good authority that the cheapo little single 8" is a very good sub, hard as this is to believe.  I hate to even say this in a public forum, but someone I normally think is pretty credible compared a pair of Yammies very favorably to a Bag End and Earthquake sub!  Mind you, I haven't heard the unit myself, just repeating the words of a pretty astute listener.

McR · Oct 26, 2013

If using for music only,you only need a sub that will go down to 30 Hz. 40 Hz being the lowest note on a piano. You will save lots of power that is being wasted reproducing noise,that will muddy the sound.

mtrycrafts · Oct 26, 2013

McR said:
If using for music only,you only need a sub that will go down to 30 Hz. 40 Hz being the lowest note on a piano. You will save lots of power that is being wasted reproducing noise,that will muddy the sound.

Boy, this is a 2003 post you are responding to.

What if he want to listen to organ music? Some can go down to 16 Hz.

modernprimitive · Nov 5, 2013

yeah. play toccata and fugue in d minor through a system capable of reproducing it and you'll feel how low a pipe organ can go.

3db · Nov 5, 2013

Who brought this thread back from the dead?

I didn't think there was enough server space that records go this far back..

Subwoofer application musical v.s. home theater

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