Sub recommendations?

M

Mark 471

Enthusiast
Hi Everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to read and help. I am looking to round off my home theater with a second sub (preferably a 10" sub with hopes that I can find some harder hitting bass) and was wondering if anyone has any recommendations? I currently have a M&K (MX105 dual 12" sub) the sub has performed very well for movies at low and low-mid range, but seems to lack (and doesn't hit very hard) when listening to many types of music.

I plan to reconfigure the room with the M&K 12" at the rear center of the room and the new 10" sub at the front center of the room. Is it okay to pair two different size and models of subs? What other things should I be concerned with.

Has anyone tried the Cerwin-Vega CMX-10? I am also currently considering the BIC America F-12 or the Pinnacle Subsonix 10-200. The Pinnacle is hard to say no to at only $134.00.

Brand new to blogs and Audioholics. I discovered the site earlier tonight and you guys are maniacs! Really cool.

Thanks for your help.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Welcome to the site!! Glad to have you.

Generally it is not recommended to have two different brands, much less sizes of subwoofer covering the same bandwidth. There are many reasons for this but the main one is that they have two different response characteristics trying to cover the same signal. The only way this could possibly be recommended would be to have them cover different frequency bands.

For instance sub A had an f3 of 28hz at 101db and sub B has an f3 of 37 hz at 103db. This means that sub A plays deeper. in this case one could run sub B from say 110hz down to 45 hz an then run sub A from 45hz down. This, in some effect takes two subwoofers an allows them to perform as one 'system'. This is obviously complicated for a beginner in the hobby to set up and requires additional equipment for signal separation to the two subwoofers.

There are many quality budget subs out in the market.

What are your goals and expectations for this new sub?

What size is your listening room?

What is your budget for the new sub as well?

Also, I am not saying you cannot run two different subwoofers over the same bandwidth, but know that it presents additional challenges.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
This is exactly how i run my system!! Dont get another sub that is meant for the complete range of subwoofer frequencies. Instead, get the sub that that is made exactly for this purpose. The HSU MBM-12 MKII (mid bas module)

This MBM only goes down to 50hz & naturally rolls off there. So you have this sub pick up where the speakers crossover from (say 80hz) and it goes down to 50hz. Then on your M&K youd set the crossover on the sub itself to 50hz & let it handle 50hz & below.

The MBM has all the SLAM youd ever want in a decent large room. It has a specially designed speed woofer that is light & has a special cloth accordian surround as well (similar to a pro woofer). This thing is meant to get loud and be very tight!! I can vouch for it too, i have a buttkicker in my couch but with this MBM i rarely use it.

Youd place the MBM near you & the M&K far from you. Go on the HSU site, it explains why. It costs $499 but is an incredible addition for movies!!! You want slam? This thing has it in spades!!!
Also, by relieving your M&K from having to do the midbass, it has more power to concentrate on the low bass. This, in theory, will give it more dynamics! Is a $499 that is more than worth the cost. If you dont have that budget amount yet then id recommend saving up until you do!

HSUResearch.com.
MBM-12

I hope this helps you!! It did for me!! :)
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I plan to reconfigure the room with the M&K 12" at the rear center of the room and the new 10" sub at the front center of the room. Is it okay to pair two different size and models of subs? What other things should I be concerned with.
Is it okay?

It depends on the overload behavior of the subs in question.

Let's say sub A has bass down to 40hz @ 105db
let's say sub B has bass down to 30hz @ 110db

Now let's say you turn the volume up.

Whether it's okay or not, depends on if Sub A is "graceful" attempting to match Sub B's 30hz @ 110db.

That is to say, if it bows out without making noise, then the effect won't be offensive. If it makes distortion and noise then it's a problem.

The pros of using multiple subs is that above 40hz, you will have smoother frequency response ::IF:: you do a good job setting things up. Smoother frequency response will lead to better perceived punch / attack (it has little to do with sub A sounding "better" in the midbass, it's mostly about room/placement/etc to minimize response dips and peaks..)

The cons of using different multiple subs is if you play loud enough for the lesser sub to hits limits.

So it depends on the application, expectations, setup, etc. There's never a universal answer. Given the above though, i will point out that lesser subs are likely to have less graceful overload behaviour.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yes, I'm in agreement with pretty much everything you've been told here so far. I'll just add a couple more examples:

- If you have multiple subwoofers, what you are going to hear is basically the "worst" subwoofer in your setup "pulling down" the quality of your bass, not your "best" subwoofer "pulling up" the other subs.

If one sub has worse transient response - with high group delay, lots of overhang, or just generally "slow" sounding response - then that's what you're going to hear. If one sub has higher distortion, then that's what you're going to hear - and this is especially important if one sub plays lower than the other, because the sub that cannot play as low might be attempting to produce frequencies that are below what it can reach without going into high distortion.

It really is a case of "the weakest link" in the chain.

As Granteed was saying, if the sub that cannot play as low has a very steep filter on its low end - so that it does not even try to play lower than it can and prevents it from producing high distortion, then things are not so bad on just the extension front. But you still have to deal with the transient response - where what you will hear will be the "slower" of your two subs. And when you turn the volume way up, which ever sub starts to distort first - that's the one you're going to hear, so at all times, you are limited by your "worst" sub in those departments.

It isn't always the case, but the likelihood is that a little 10" is going to distort at a lower volume than your larger subs. You'll have gained around 3dB of output by virtue of having two subs playing, but you'll be limited to the maximum distortion free output of the little 10" sub, which means you've likely not gained any real headroom by adding it.

The 10" almost certainly won't play as low. Now it's a question of whether it has a very steep roll off on its bottom end so that it doesn't start distorting and compressing trying to match the extension of your larger sub.

And while some 10" subs might be "faster" and have better transient response, you're not going to hear it. If the 10" has better transient response than your larger sub, you're still only going to hear the transient response of the larger, "slower" sub". The "slower" sub will always mask the "faster" sub.

So essentially, you haven't gained anything! As Granteed mentioned, provided you place your subs properly, you will gain smoother frequency response at more seats for the frequencies where the two subs are both playing - so that's your only gain. If that's the only issue you're trying to improve, then ok. But you're not gaining anything else, so it isn't really the best use of your money, IMO.

As was mentioned, if you feel as though you are missing some mid-bass "slam", consider something like the MBM-12. As timoteo pointed out, that is exactly what it is designed for. You feed both the MBM-12 and your large, deep-playing sub the exact same subwoofer signal. You set your deep-playing sub's internal cross-over to 50Hz, meaning that it will filter out everything above 50Hz with a 24dB/octave slope. The MBM-12 already has filters in place to filter out everything below 50Hz at 24dB/octave, so you've created a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley cross-over at 50Hz between the two subs. The cross-over between the MBM-12 and your speakers is handled as normal by your receiver. So you've basically just made your subwoofer into a two-way system - very much like a two-way speaker with a tweeter and mid-woofer. The MBM-12 is handling the "high" portion of the bass and then crossing over with a 4th order slope to the "low" portion of the bass being handled by your larger, deep-playing sub.

Now, with the MBM-12 system, you're not gaining anything in the way of more even frequency response at multiple seats. You're essentially still just using one subwoofer.

So if you "want it all", really the only way is to get a second subwoofer with identical performance to the first. Typically, that just means getting a second identical subwoofer! Or replacing what you already have with dual subs ;)
 
M

Mark 471

Enthusiast
Subwoofer Recommendations. . .

Wow. Thanks for all the helpful tips. Like I said in my first post, "you guys are maniacs!"

I have experimented with my layout a little bit this morning and have decided to add two more speakers and set the system up for 7.1 (not that it will solve my current sub issue; just wanted to share.)

I think part of my problem also stems from my klipsch towers (SF-3's.) The horn tweeters produce excellent high and overall the speakers are very efficient with low distortion. However, the speakers are very directional and it's definitely a case of the ying and the yang here. While the towers produce superb highs they also lack in the mid range department. I think this is also what I am trying to compensate for. My original plan when I bought the system about 7 years ago was to get great highs and great lows and the rest would take care of itself. (Not the best move on my part.)

I have come to terms with adding a second identical sub (if it's the best way to go) and I love the idea of adding a second sub and having the two cross each other, and I get the conclusion that in essence I would still only effectively be running one sub.

As I consider adding a matching M&K MX105 I am still concerned the subs won't hit but very will definitely produce more room filling bass as my current MX105 has done very well. (Could this be because the M&K sub isn't ported?) Still a newby here but, really excited to learn. . .

The room measures 24' x 13' and I plan to set the TV up along one of the 13' walls with a sub front and ctr and the second sub on the direct opposing wall.

I guess at this point my questions are:

1. Am I better off adding a matching second M&K MX105M2 and being done with it or going with the MBM-12 and really dial them in with one another?

Thanks again! You guys are great!
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Oh please dont waste your money going from 5.1 to 7.1. Its not a bad change but where you are at right now, you will benefit so much more by using that money to address the bass issue. I highly recommend waiting on the additional back speakers until you figure out the subs. Then if you feel its needed get the extra speakers.

Most movies are in 5.1 & the processing that adds the rear channels wont make much of a difference unless you have 2 or more rows of seats in the typical theater layout. Sounds like you just need to place your 2 surrounds better to get that rear imaging just right.

Thats my thought on that. Its your money but id like you to get the most improvement with your purchases buddy!

Honestly your kind of in a tough spot. That 10" wont go very deep. Adding the MBM-12 to that 10" isnt going to help go any deeper just give you great midbass.
Adding a second M&K 10" wont get you deeper either. You will get more volume & if placed correctly get you more even bass across more seats but thats it.

How much could you get if you sold the M&K?

Maybe just sell the sub you have & combine that money with what your willing to spend on the new sub & get yourself an overall better single sub!! Thats what id do!! Ive sold many pieces of audio gear online. Thats how i always upgrade. Its actually pretty easy & a good way to get the money needed to improve your system!!

Audiogon.com is great.
 
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M

Mark 471

Enthusiast
Sub recommendations. . .

Hi Guys your support and recommendations have been great!

It's been a difficult decision, but I have decided to part with the beloved MK-105. If you know anyone interested; I am looking to get $450.00 (paid $900 new.)

I have become really excited about the thought of running dual opposing subs. I am looking at; the SB-13 plus by SVS and am willing to consider any other favorites. Once again looking for something that will hit hard and also handle the lower frequencies. Would love to be around $1K each. Planning on starting with one and adding the second if it sounds like it still need more.

Also, planning on upgrading the receiver to a 7.2. Any other top picks and favorites will be investigated.

Thanks again!
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
The SVS SB13 Plus is a great sub! But id be considering dual HSU ULS-15 subs with the XBL^2 motor drivers. They are extremely musical & duals can be potent in even a large room!!

You are making a good choice by selling the 10"!

Remind me what this system is being used for most?

Why are you deciding on sealed subs?
 
M

Mark 471

Enthusiast
Thanks! I am not really sure where I am heading with this whole thing (which I understand can be very dangerous.)

According to M&K the MX105 is a dual 12" it just doesn't hit very hard. I think it is because it lacks power more than anything when compared to other high end subs.

I am open to ported subs. (I simply heard good things about the svs.)

I guess in the end I am looking for a complete system (sub, receiver, new towers) that I can grow old with for around $4,500.00 I hope to pick up some of the components slightly used if they are available in the right condition (at the right price) which would allow me to afford higher end components.

I am new to this hobby and love how tremendously humbled I have been in the past few days.

I have become gun-shy from the investment I made in the M&K only to find I was disappointed in it in the long run.

I am concerned about dropping a fresh $4,500 on things and not being pleased with the end result.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Thanks! I am not really sure where I am heading with this whole thing (which I understand can be very dangerous.)

According to M&K the MX105 is a dual 12" it just doesn't hit very hard. I think it is because it lacks power more than anything when compared to other high end subs.

I am open to ported subs. (I simply heard good things about the svs.)

I guess in the end I am looking for a complete system (sub, receiver, new towers) that I can grow old with for around $4,500.00 I hope to pick up some of the components slightly used if they are available in the right condition (at the right price) which would allow me to afford higher end components.

I am new to this hobby and love how tremendously humbled I have been in the past few days.

I have become gun-shy from the investment I made in the M&K only to find I was disappointed in it in the long run.

I am concerned about dropping a fresh $4,500 on things and not being pleased with the end result.

To help recommend a solution for you some answers to the questions I posed in my first response would be helpful.

There are MANY options out there to choose from so eliminating some of them based upon your needs/wants/budget will be helpful.

Need to uncover the best sub for your application, not the best sub (objectively) on the market. ;)
 
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