Straightwire Interconnects advice

J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
Even that can't defy the laws of physics and cause the electrons to move any faster than 186,200 feet per second.
Forest Man ;)
186,200 feet per second is not that fast, I can get electrons to move much faster than that without violating the laws of physics. That's only .189% of lightspeed.

Cheers, John
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The have been lots and lots of cable discussions, but the bottom line is copper wire is copper wire and there are very few physical properties you can alter. The gauge of the wire ( lower number is bigger), lowers resistance but most people overdo even that, whereas 14 gauge is normally sufficient for any speaker run 50 ft. or less, many people use 12 or 10 gauge for much shorted runs. The only other factors are the physical quality of the cable, cable sheathing, quality of eletrical connection to end connectors and end connectors themself- mostly a moot point because unless you have really cheap cable or a broken end connector the electrons flow the same. About the only real difference in cables is the asthetic looks and the braggabilty/impressibility of touting how much the cables cost $$$. Even that can't defy the laws of physics and cause the electrons to move any faster than 186,200 feet per second.

Monoprice ( as mentioned earlier) or Blue Jeans Cables make excellent, inexpensive, high quality cables. Maybe not as impressive as to your friends and peers as "Straight Wire" or supposedly the very best: Pear Cable Corporation's ANJOU speaker cable. Pear reports that these cables “allow new levels of sonic accuracy to be explored.” Supposedly, this exploration is accomplished by “proprietary hybrid geometry,” “ultra low electrical reactance” and “fully annealed 99.999% pure oxygen free Copper.”

But with these expensive audio cables you approach the realm of audio listening that only an expert in pyschoacoustics could even attempt to address.

Later,

Forest Man ;)
A few things can physically alter the ability of a cable to do its job as designed, and one is bend raduis, if extremely high frequencies are being transmitted, as in video or data. The dielectric can be compressed if the cable is kinked or bent too tightly (like coax) and that causes noise and transmission issues. Speaker cable is usually not carrying high enough voltage or current to cause or be affected by many things, other than proximity to high voltage/current conductors. 70V systems are an exception to this and can cause capacitive coupling problems when run parallel to line or preamp level signals. Most people who claim to have a high-end system don't run their cables over long distances, which further minimizes the issues, yet they spend who knows how much on cables that are supposed to be able to allow hearing a gnat sneeze during the softest passages and reduce the need for cable break-in. The effect of a cable on its signal is directly proportionate to it's length. If it's a power cable, it's directly proportionate to the current, length and cross-sectional area. Short, thick cables can transfer a lot of energy without problems and long, skinny ones can't.

The cable must be made to transfer the signal without degradation but just making it thicker doesn't necessarily do that, nor does stuffing it with BS.
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
186,200 feet per second is not that fast, I can get electrons to move much faster than that without violating the laws of physics. That's only .189% of lightspeed.

Cheers, John
\\Atlzheimer's typo feet =miles 186,200 miles per second -- happens when two of the consecutve numbers is a person's age :D
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
\\Atlzheimer's typo feet =miles 186,200 miles per second -- happens when two of the consecutve numbers is a person's age :D
zero and...zero??:p I wuz just funnin ya..

Actually, the electrons travel in the mm per second range.

If they go too fast (too high a current density), they start moving the metal itself.

Copper will start to electromigrate at 10 power 7 amps per cm squared, aluminum at 10 power 6, the solder joints at 10 power 4.

Cheers, John
edit:forgot this site no have much html..
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
Interesting - Any articales measuring ?

A few things can physically alter the ability of a cable to do its job as designed, and one is bend raduis, if extremely high frequencies are being transmitted, as in video or data. The dielectric can be compressed if the cable is kinked or bent too tightly (like coax) and that causes noise and transmission issues. Speaker cable is usually not carrying high enough voltage or current to cause or be affected by many things, other than proximity to high voltage/current conductors. 70V systems are an exception to this and can cause capacitive coupling problems when run parallel to line or preamp level signals. Most people who claim to have a high-end system don't run their cables over long distances, which further minimizes the issues, yet they spend who knows how much on cables that are supposed to be able to allow hearing a gnat sneeze during the softest passages and reduce the need for cable break-in. The effect of a cable on its signal is directly proportionate to it's length. If it's a power cable, it's directly proportionate to the current, length and cross-sectional area. Short, thick cables can transfer a lot of energy without problems and long, skinny ones can't.

The cable must be made to transfer the signal without degradation but just making it thicker doesn't necessarily do that, nor does stuffing it with BS.
Interesting about the dielectric properties of bend radius. Can you cite any studied about where this has been measured and its effect on SQ ? Very few dielectric materials can actually be compressed because they are typically a solid expanded polymer blend. The most likely problem with cable dielectric is during in-wall instalaltion when the stable penetrates the cable and causes a short or near-short ( close proximity which can arc or eliminate almost all dielectric isolation.

Capacitive or Inductive coupling can occur at any voltage, I am not sure why you selected 70 Volts. Normally, this is so low in SNR that it has no effect. More likely impact would be EMF but even that has a very low SNR. I would be interested in more information about the 70 volt cpaacitive coupling issue.

Concerning cable break-in --Misnomer, cables don't need break-in. Concerning cable effect being proportional to length, current cross sectional area. It all boils down to electrical resistivity -based on temperature ( higher temperature higher restance), conductor material ( most are copper, but there are sliver nad gold connector types) and effective crossectional size ( could be mutilple smaller gauge wires) of the conductor. Physical size of wire should not be the metric to judge capacity by, because some vendors use heavy, thicker sheathing, polymer center in wire braid, etc. and substandard materials from an electrical perspective, e.g. aluminum. Aluminum wire was used in mobile homes i nthe 70's and 80s and tight bends DID cuase significant electrical problem causing pinched ( loss cross area) heat spots that in extreme cases causes fires. This just doesn't happen with braided copper wire.

Anyway Highfigh, thanks for providing your informative post.

Peace and Power-On,

Forest Man
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
Interesting about the dielectric properties of bend radius. Can you cite any studied about where this has been measured and its effect on SQ
No need. With the foamed dielectrics typical of high quality high velocity cables, they will certainly distort as the cable bends. Once there is any distortion, the cable is no longer a fully constrained system..ie: the external magnetic field of the braid no longer cancels the field of the core outside the braid.

? Very few dielectric materials can actually be compressed because they are typically a solid expanded polymer blend.
To get the relative permittivity below about 2, it is necessary to foam the plastic. This makes the dielectric easily distorted if you exceed the bend radius.

Cheers, John
 
yannaros

yannaros

Audioholic Intern
You guys are funny...and very knowledgeable as I see.

Where do you learn all this info?
Reading, searching?

I would like to know some links if you know of such results. (General audio)

I am also interested on subwoofers since I ordered one and the only think I know so far is that its difficult in the beginning to set it up.

Thank you

Yannis
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
You guys are funny...and very knowledgeable as I see.

Where do you learn all this info?
Reading, searching?
Lying..

We make it all up. The real test is to make it seem really plausible. Large words help. (think of wally in the dilbert cartoons)

I would like to know some links if you know of such results. (General audio)
Some of it is culled directly out of maxwells equations, some from particle accelerator technology, some from transmission line theory. wiki helps at times but sometimes is in error, hyperphysics is excellent for higher level thingy's and is never wrong......the sources are many...And the uses are few:p

Sites such as this go a long way towards educating the masses. Sometimes geeks such as myself help, sometimes we hinder...

Cheers, John
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
You guys are funny...and very knowledgeable as I see.

Where do you learn all this info?
Reading, searching?

I would like to know some links if you know of such results. (General audio)

I am also interested on subwoofers since I ordered one and the only think I know so far is that its difficult in the beginning to set it up.

Thank you

Yannis
Yannis,

Read threads on this site and you will learn more than you could ever imagine ;)

....reading, searching, audophile desire, background, hobbies, experience

Good Luck!

Forest Man
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Interesting about the dielectric properties of bend radius. Can you cite any studied about where this has been measured and its effect on SQ ? Very few dielectric materials can actually be compressed because they are typically a solid expanded polymer blend. The most likely problem with cable dielectric is during in-wall instalaltion when the stable penetrates the cable and causes a short or near-short ( close proximity which can arc or eliminate almost all dielectric isolation.

Capacitive or Inductive coupling can occur at any voltage, I am not sure why you selected 70 Volts. Normally, this is so low in SNR that it has no effect. More likely impact would be EMF but even that has a very low SNR. I would be interested in more information about the 70 volt cpaacitive coupling issue.

Concerning cable break-in --Misnomer, cables don't need break-in. Concerning cable effect being proportional to length, current cross sectional area. It all boils down to electrical resistivity -based on temperature ( higher temperature higher restance), conductor material ( most are copper, but there are sliver nad gold connector types) and effective crossectional size ( could be mutilple smaller gauge wires) of the conductor. Physical size of wire should not be the metric to judge capacity by, because some vendors use heavy, thicker sheathing, polymer center in wire braid, etc. and substandard materials from an electrical perspective, e.g. aluminum. Aluminum wire was used in mobile homes i nthe 70's and 80s and tight bends DID cuase significant electrical problem causing pinched ( loss cross area) heat spots that in extreme cases causes fires. This just doesn't happen with braided copper wire.

Anyway Highfigh, thanks for providing your informative post.

Peace and Power-On,

Forest Man
How much it's affected depends on the type of cable, like RG-6. That's an expanded foam and depending on the center conductor's stiffness, it can definitely compress the dielectric. CEDIA, which is like major comm installation with training wheels, recommends 4x the cable's diameter as the minimum bend radius. It's not so much when staples penetrate, which really does a number on the cable's characteristics, but when installers feel that tight right angles at the drilled hole at the top of a framing member is OK. The weight of a large bundle of cables can be substantial and when they're wire tied together, the ones at the edge of the hole are getting mashed pretty badly. I haven't seen them but I have an idea for something that would eliminate the problem, so I'll leave it at that.

I chose 70V because I worked on a system at an LDS facility in Illinois that had loud snapping whenever the volume was turned above a certain level and the line audio feeds were run parallel to the bundle of speaker wires, all of which were on a 70V system. I talked with the engineer about it and we agreed that this was the cause. I tend to trust this guy- his comments were in line with everything I had heard and he does some huge systems, such as the new Dallas Cowboy's stadium. He wasn't the one who decided on the height of the scoreboard, though.

Re: cable break-in, I know. I was kidding and am annoyed by the explanation I got from an AudioQuest dealer. He was a customer of mine before he went into business with the other partner, who I also know from an acoustics class we took at UW-Milwaukee in about '81. I thought I taught him better than that, but I guess trying to sell a 6' pair of interconnects that lists for $4900.00 with 48VDC had too much attraction for him. The 72VDC 6' pair lists for $6900.00 and no, these aren't typos.

I have a friend who has designed X-Ray equipment for the food industry and that requires really good shielding in order to not skew the image and timing of the "snapshots" at the speed the jars and bottles are flying past the beam. These use PLCs and in their case, Windows-based computers. I tell him about these cables and he just moans & rolls his eyes.

As far as aluminum wire- it has been used in houses since WWII, because they needed all the copper they could get, so they used aluminum. They didn't have too many problems until people started overloading the circuits and heating the wires, which became brittle and caused the insulation to bake. They went in and added to the circuits and replaced receptacles, which broke the insulation, caused arcing and shorts, fires and all kinds of other problems. The recommendation I heard was that if Al wire is used, it needs to be one size larger than copper to avoid problems. The lines to our houses have been aluminum for a long time, too. I really don't like it but it's lighter than copper and the electric company thinks it works well, so it would be hard to get them to replace it with copper.
 
Wannabubble

Wannabubble

Junior Audioholic
Here's something to think about as you are dealing with cables.

"The best cable is no cable" :cool:

The purpose of a cable is to transfer a signal completely unaltered.

I believe I read it somewhere on this site. :D
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Here's something to think about as you are dealing with cables.

"The best cable is no cable" :cool:

The purpose of a cable is to transfer a signal completely unaltered.

I believe I read it somewhere on this site. :D
A long time ago, I read that the perfect amplifier is defined as "a straight wire with gain". I think that's where Straight Wire cables got the idea for their name.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
aluminum wiring..

As far as aluminum wire- it has been used in houses since WWII, because they needed all the copper they could get, so they used aluminum. They didn't have too many problems until people started overloading the circuits and heating the wires, which became brittle and caused the insulation to bake. They went in and added to the circuits and replaced receptacles, which broke the insulation, caused arcing and shorts, fires and all kinds of other problems. The recommendation I heard was that if Al wire is used, it needs to be one size larger than copper to avoid problems. The lines to our houses have been aluminum for a long time, too. I really don't like it but it's lighter than copper and the electric company thinks it works well, so it would be hard to get them to replace it with copper.
Actually, the case of aluminum wiring is a tad different. I actually do not know what is out there on the web, so I'll explain from memory.

1. There is a difference in the thermal expansion coefficient (TCE)between copper and aluminum. Aluminum has a TCE of 25.5 ppm/degree C, and copper has a TCE of 16 ppm per degree C. ALL alloys of copper are within 1ppm of pure copper. Stainless also runs 16ppm, so all mounting hardware and screws match the expansion of copper. For aluminum wiring, when the wiring warms up as a result of temperature increase (note A), it will want to expand faster than the screw which is compressing it. Because aluminum wire (copper as well) is not hardened, but is soft to allow it to be bent without cracking, the aluminum will be compressed much more, and will cold flow (note B). Through repeated cycles of this, the connection will loosen up. Subsequent heating at the connection will result from the loosening, and this will speed up the heating/compression/flow/heating cycle. Eventually, the heat will be sufficient for a fire.

2. There is a significant difference in the conductivity of the oxides of aluminum and copper. Aluminum oxide does not conduct electricity, but copper oxide does. As a joint ages, aluminum wire will oxidize, and this will begin to compromise the joint integrity. As that starts, the contacts will begin to heat, starting the death spiral noted in 1.

3. The National Electric Code specifies exactly what each guage ampacity is for both aluminum and copper. Aluminum does indeed require a larger cross section for the same current. edit: tables 310.16 through 310.19 of the NEC specify the ampacity of copper, aluminum, and copper clad aluminum as well as correction factors for ambient temperature. 310.15B(2)(a) derates for the number of current carrying conductors. These tables cover wire rated for 60, 75, 90, 150, 200, and 250 degrees C.

4. There are a few ways to mitigate the problems associated with aluminum wiring, things like pigtails, paste, and end use hardware specifically designed and marked as suitable for copper/aluminum, or just aluminum. ALWAYS follow these recommendations, they are in the code for VERY good reasons. Remember, the National Electric Code is maintained by the NFPA, the National Fire Protection Association, so all of the code is based in historical evidence of fires and fire related problems.

Note A: ALL wiring is rated for current capacity (ampacity) based on the guage of the conductor, the conductivity of the conductor, the heat environment of the conductor, and the temperature rating of the insulation. To assume that any wire remains cool in operation is folly.

Note B: Solder also cold flows. This is creep of the metal as a result of stress, either compressive, tensile, or shear. Never rely on the solder for the physical strength of a joint. And never pre-tin stranded wire which will be placed in compression by a screw or other mechanism. I've heard of some instances where stranded copper wire was used in wall for AC, and then tinning the end so that the wire can be captured by the screw head more easily. This method WILL result in long term problems, fire being one of them. I personally have a piece of equipment which cost 1.5 e6 dollars which the tech had pre-tinned all the signal wires which go into screw blocks. Every year, we have a tech tighten up every single screw on every block so as to avoid intermittent connections. This is very important when motion control hardware is involved..

My apologies for the long and off topic rant, but this subject matter is very important.

Cheers, John

Followup edit note:

The wiki entry for aluminum wiring is consistent with my blather in all but one case. They claim that studies have shown that it is not the aluminum oxide growth that continues to compromise the connection, but rather, the formation of aluminum-steel intermetallics. I cannot confirm nor deny the veracity of that statement, so I will retain both possibilities as plausible until I can find any peer reviewed research papers supporting the intermetallic claim..
 
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Brett A

Brett A

Audioholic
yannaros. Audioholics is an objectivist site. And many here believe there is no quantifiable difference in interconnects, power cords, or amplification, for that matter.
This is true about this place. What i still can't understand is all the hostility heaped upon people who regard current science as simply a factor in reaching their own conclusions. (the subjectivists)

There are just as many people who will let someone tell them what they will NOT hear as there are folks letting people tell them what they WILL hear. I don't see that one group has anything over the other.

I don't really care what a patch cord/interconnect is made of, who made it, how much it costs, weighs, shines, bends; I don't care what color it is, who put it in my hands, or what people on the interweb say about it. Cables, for the most part, in my direct experience, all sound different from each other.

But this hostility thing (name calling, insulting groups of "belivers" en masse), I have to wonder what it's all about.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I don't really care what a patch cord/interconnect is made of, who made it, how much it costs, weighs, shines, bends; I don't care what color it is, who put it in my hands, or what people on the interweb say about it. Cables, for the most part, in my direct experience, all sound different from each other.
You also don't care that neither you, nor anyone else, can actually identify cables by their sounds despite their insistance that they sound different.

Many, many double-blind listening tests; and no one has ever been reliably able to tell A from B when both were properly constructed cable.

Would you care to explain why that is?
 
Brett A

Brett A

Audioholic
You also don't care that neither you, nor anyone else, can actually identify cables by their sounds despite their insistance that they sound different.
This is just the thing. Here you are speaking for me--what I can and can't hear. I find that kind of hubris ugly and disrespectful. I've never taken part in a test like this. I'd love the opportunity.
Many, many double-blind listening tests; and no one has ever been reliably able to tell A from B when both were properly constructed cable.
Is that to say some tests have had positive, but unreliable results?

Would you care to explain why that is?
I wouldn't venture a guess and there's a limit to how much I care to try to explain about someone elses' experience.

The bottom line for me is my own experience. As relatively unreliable as it is, there are an underlying limits to its inconsistency. My system sounds different from day-to-day or hour-to-hour--this difference is purely psycho-acoustic. But that range -or in other words the quality of my system-can be raised or lowered.

And as I said, I don't care what hook up cables cost (although on principal, I would not spend more than half a day's pay on a pair). I'm just as open to being happy with a $4 set as I am a $400 set. I listen to what my ears tell me over time and choose what sounds best. That's why I rarely buy anything i can't audition in my living room first.

I don't know what's going on for people who say that cables don't sound different. I imagine a number of things. A pre-disposition to believe they don't, a willingness or inclination to put all faith in current science (e'g measuring tools), a system that can't reveal the differences, poor hearing, not coming across the right cable yet. As I said, i don't care to get too involved in others' experiences, but sometimes I can't help but wonder.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
This is just the thing. Here you are speaking for me--what I can and can't hear. I find that kind of hubris ugly and disrespectful. I've never taken part in a test like this. I'd love the opportunity.
I also belive you cannot fly using the power of your mind, and that you are not >10' tall.

Is assuming that something is true of you because it is true every time ever tested across decades and hundreds of subjects hubris? I don't think it is.

Is that to say some tests have had positive, but unreliable results?
Yes. Random guessing between two possabilities will be right about 50% of the time.

For example, if comparing say monster cable to lamp cord I do a test where I randomly choose one or the other and ask you to guess which it is, and you guess "lamp cord" ever time, you will be right about 50% of the time, but unreliable.

Reliable results require a consistancy considerably in excess of what random selection would provide.

The bottom line for me is my own experience. As relatively unreliable as it is, there are an underlying limits to its inconsistency. My system sounds different from day-to-day or hour-to-hour--this difference is purely psycho-acoustic. But that range -or in other words the quality of my system-can be raised or lowered.
I do believe your perception of the sound changes, but it's not actually related to the gear.

And as I said, I don't care what hook up cables cost (although on principal, I would not spend more than half a day's pay on a pair). I'm just as open to being happy with a $4 set as I am a $400 set. I listen to what my ears tell me over time and choose what sounds best. That's why I rarely buy anything i can't audition in my living room first.
For properly built cables, there is no real difference in sound. That's why I buy cables all the time I've never listened to.

I don't know what's going on for people who say that cables don't sound different. I imagine a number of things. A pre-disposition to believe they don't, a willingness or inclination to put all faith in current science (e'g measuring tools), a system that can't reveal the differences, poor hearing, not coming across the right cable yet. As I said, i don't care to get too involved in others' experiences, but sometimes I can't help but wonder.
I'm not sure why, faced with the fact that no person on Earth has *ever* been able to reliably dicern between two different, properly built cables; they still think they can discern between two different and properly built cables.

You mentioned hubris? What does it take to believe an impression you cannot demonstrate and which every test ever performed establishes is purely in your mind is, in fact, not in your mind? That sounds like hubris.
 

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