Starting to really dislike LR4 crossovers!

[TheStalker]

Directly speaking in regards to acoustical slopes, the best I can do to explain my position is to describe what I'm hearing. To me, LR4s sound unnatural, flat, dead, lifeless, small soundstage, impossible integration between the tweeter and the woofer, harsh, tizzy, etc. This maybe another reason why I've never like ribbon tweeters. All of those designs use LR4s. As a matter of fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of a speaker that I truly liked which used LR4.

The new B&W lines (CM, Diamond) use first order electrical filters, roughly second order acoustic. Same goes for most Dynaudio speakers starting with the Focus line. Vintage Thiels (i.e. CS 3.6) were close to first order acoustic. Not sure about the current Focal lines. The legendary Goldmund Dialogues/Meta used elliptical filters. Ensemble PA-1, another classic, was also LR2. Some of my favorite kits like the Zaph ZD5, Excite Audio, and many designs from Troels Gravensen are mostly second order acoustic. That pretty much covers 95% of my favorite speakers.

I'm starting to believe that LR2 is the holy grail. But higher order filters like the eliptical/cauer also sound good. It just leaves the LR4 as the only topology which produces terrible sound.

LR4 requires the least amount of knowledge to design and the lowest cost to produce. I get that. But I wish more manufacturers used LR2 and hired better engineers for both speaker driver design and crossover design. It's not THAT difficult.

 

[padgman1]

You are entitled to your opinion, and some may agree.

Others will be voicing their opinion soon, and they will probably disagree. ( Hopefully Dennis Murphy will garner his opinion.)

(Disclaimer: I have not heard any of the speakers you have mentioned above. I have heard a few ribbon/ RAAL speakers and find them enjoyable.)

 

[jinjuku]

I know Jeff Bagby prefers LR4, electrical + acoustical, slopes.

 

[TheStalker]

I know Jeff Bagby prefers LR4, electrical + acoustical, slopes.

I'm not so sure about that. LR4 designs are just throwaways. His more serious projects are something like LR2 and time coherent as well. I'm fairly certain he prefers shallower slopes sonically. So does Zaph, even though most of his designs are LR4s.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm not so sure about that. LR4 designs are just throwaways. His more serious projects are something like LR2 and time coherent as well. I'm fairly certain he prefers shallower slopes sonically. So does Zaph, even though most of his designs are LR4s.

Jeff has stated many times that he does not design based on a preference for one type of crossover or another. He "follows the drivers" and allows them to dictate the crossover. For many of the designs he does he finds that an LR4 works best, but for the Kairos, which is what I assume you're referencing, he explains very clearly why he chose the crossover he did. It's not as simple as saying it's an LR2 either. He calls it something of a hybrid crossover that he came up with awhile back, but lacked the drivers to make it work in the real world.

Any good designer will create a crossover based on the drivers used and will allow them to dictate the crossover point and the slopes. Additionally, it usually takes a little trial and error even with guys as experienced as Dennis and Jeff.

 

[TheStalker]

Jeff has stated many times that he does not design based on a preference for one type of crossover or another. He "follows the drivers" and allows them to dictate the crossover. For many of the designs he does he finds that an LR4 works best, but for the Kairos, which is what I assume you're referencing, he explains very clearly why he chose the crossover he did. It's not as simple as saying it's an LR2 either. He calls it something of a hybrid crossover that he came up with awhile back, but lacked the drivers to make it work in the real world.

Any good designer will create a crossover based on the drivers used and will allow them to dictate the crossover point and the slopes. Additionally, it usually takes a little trial and error even with guys as experienced as Dennis and Jeff.

I've conversed with Jeff on numerous occasions and have a very good idea what his preferences are. But best to not speculate and ask him directly on that other forum And yes, most designs are LR4 from Jeff and Zaph, because most of these designs are mid-fi. LR4 always works best with cheap drivers, mid-fi equipment, and low cost projects. Nothing new there.

 

[fuzz092888]

I've conversed with Jeff on numerous occasions and have a very good idea what his preferences are. But best to not speculate and ask him directly on that other forum And yes, most designs are LR4 from Jeff and Zaph, because most of these designs are mid-fi. LR4 always works best with cheap drivers, mid-fi equipment, and low cost projects. Nothing new there.

Which is your opinion on the matter So long as we're agreeing that is in no way fact (that LR4 only works best with cheap drivers etc etc) then all is well. No speculation here, he states it all the time what his preferences are when designing crossovers are for all to see on PETT and the bit about the Kairos is right in the PDF on the meniscus audio page.

 

[TheStalker]

Which is your opinion on the matter So long as we're agreeing that is in no way fact (that LR4 only works best with cheap drivers etc etc) then all is well. No speculation here, he states it all the time what his preferences are when designing crossovers are for all to see on PETT and the bit about the Kairos is right in the PDF on the meniscus audio page.

Cheap drivers and expensive ribbons I should have said Ribbons ONLY work with LR4 crossovers as they don't even work with ellipticals.

 

[fuzz092888]

Cheap drivers and expensive ribbons I should have said Ribbons ONLY work with LR4 crossovers as they don't even work with ellipticals.

Jeff seems to love the RAAL FYI

 

[TheStalker]

Jeff seems to love the RAAL FYI

But of course. They're all having a RAAL phase over there. The splashy, tizzy, and fizzy sound is not my cup of coffee. With Focal and Dynaudio leaving the DIY market, we are all left with either crap, or Scanspeak/Accuton/Seas/Audio Technology. Let me ask you this... Have you ever heard the Focal Beryllium tweeter in a high end design like the top of the line Wilson from a few years ago? Or their very own Utopia line? What about Dynaudio's Esotar 2 tweeter? Or Scanspeak's Beryllium?

They make a joke of the RAAL ribbon.

 

[lsiberian]

I'm starting to question your validity to hold an opinion on the subject.

Using LR4s allows me to get a wider band on the driver that play a certain frequency best. What's your scientific argument against LR4s? I've found LR4s works very well in my own designs. Perhaps you aren't factoring in other reasons for your observations.

 

[TheStalker]

I'm starting to question your validity to hold an opinion on the subject.

Using LR4s allows me to get a wider band on the driver that play a certain frequency best. What's your scientific argument against LR4s? I've found LR4s works very well in my own designs. Perhaps you aren't factoring in other reasons for your observations.

Since science hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of psychoacoustics, I cannot answer your question because I simply don't know the answer. But if you think that a $40 Dayton mic and free software is going to give you all of the answers, then you are mistaken greatly in my opinion. Flat SPL, uniform off-axis, even power response, good power handling, and operating all drivers where they have the lowest amount of distortion is not good enough to produce good sound. This is child's play. Loudspeaker design 101.

Most cheap modern drivers, i.e. Vifa, Peerless, Tang Bang, SB Acoustics, Seas Prestige, etc. are designed for LR4 networks. Those curves fall into shape with just two parts in 99% of cases.

I've personally have gone away from measuring and instead use my ear.

 

[GranteedEV]

Hi, TheStalker.

You're Wrong.

Bye.

 

[lsiberian]

This is child's play.

I couldn't have described you're trolling better myself. I'm guessing you evaluate speakers with youtube too.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

This is actually a very interesting subject, but not when the stalker is involved.

 

[Alex2507]

I tried swinging him into the green but the red is too deep.

Any chance we can just make this guy a mod?

 

[Swerd]

This is actually a very interesting subject, but not when the stalker is involved.

Agreed. When someone appears to be familiar with this subject, yet manages to make such glaringly wrong conclusions, it makes me wonder if he is deliberately doing this only to provoke argument. I wonder if we'll be able to ignore such clever baiting .

Any chance we can just make this guy a mod?

That's the ticket!

 

[TheStalker]

This is actually a very interesting subject, but not when the stalker is involved.

How come Dennis? I'd like to hear your thoughts! Am I wrong in what I theorize?

 

[TLS Guy]

Since science hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of psychoacoustics, I cannot answer your question because I simply don't know the answer. But if you think that a $40 Dayton mic and free software is going to give you all of the answers, then you are mistaken greatly in my opinion. Flat SPL, uniform off-axis, even power response, good power handling, and operating all drivers where they have the lowest amount of distortion is not good enough to produce good sound. This is child's play. Loudspeaker design 101.

Most cheap modern drivers, i.e. Vifa, Peerless, Tang Bang, SB Acoustics, Seas Prestige, etc. are designed for LR4 networks. Those curves fall into shape with just two parts in 99% of cases.

I've personally have gone away from measuring and instead use my ear.

I can tell you have never designed a speaker and are wrong about everything you have to say.

Speaker design starts with driver selection and trying to pick a good marriages. Then you use what crossover orders you have to, to produce a nice smooth response. In my experience the two halves of a crossover are never symmetrical, but the combined electrical and acoustic slopes are. The other issue is to make sure the drivers are operating in their appropriate power bands.

When you have done this a few times, we might regard you as someone who is entitled to a point of view. Right now your posts are useless noise.

 

[TheStalker]

I can tell you have never designed a speaker and are wrong about everything you have to say.

Speaker design starts with driver selection and trying to pick a good marriages. Then you use what crossover orders you have to, to produce a nice smooth response. In my experience the two halves of a crossover are never symmetrical, but the combined electrical and acoustic slopes are. The other issue is to make sure the drivers are operating in their appropriate power bands.

When you have done this a few times, we might regard you as someone who is entitled to a point of view. Right now your posts are useless noise.

Yes and you can design 10 speakers using your method and only one might actually sound good. What you propose does not guarantee good sound.