Standmount speakers: $2K, 4K or $6K?

[Swerd]

The mid range and crossover is as important or more important to sound. In the speakers I have heard with RAAL the overall presentation was more of a wall of sound, with dome tweeters and midranges i can usually pinpoint where the speaker is (direct radiating). With the RAALs its not as specific a location which gives a much larger soundstage in my opinion.

You earlier mentioned hearing Salk or Philharmonic speakers with the ribbon tweets. Which one?

Is your comment about the different overall presentation (I like that word to describe the effect of a crossover ) from dome or ribbon tweets a generic comment? Or have you heard a Dennis Murphy design with a dome tweet? If it wasn't one of Dennis's speakers, the difference you describe may be due to the crossover and not the tweeter per se.

I've heard standard SongTower and ribbon ST, and the ER18 MTM with dome and ribbon tweets. I find it's not easy to tell the difference.

 

[Swerd]

… I heard the Focal in a small stand mounted self-powered 2-way. It might have been either the CMS-50 or the Electra 1008 Be. I can't remember the model name, but I am certain it had the Focal beryllium tweeter…

The speaker I heard was the Focal Solo6 BE.

Solo6 Be

 

[Alex2507]

I've heard standard SongTower and ribbon ST, and the ER18 MTM with dome and ribbon tweets. I find it's not easy to tell the difference.

Even though we discussed the possible reasons for the difference heard with the SongTower dome and ribbon versions, I still feel like I could easily tell the difference. The ribbons are sooooooooooooooooo much nicer.

 

[jbltmp]

Thanks for keeping us informed about your speaker search. It's always interesting to read, and few people make such a serious effort or look in the price range that you are.



I have heard both tweeters. I heard the Focal in a small stand mounted self-powered 2-way. It might have been either the CMS-50 or the Electra 1008 Be. I can't remember the model name, but I am certain it had the Focal beryllium tweeter. And I've heard the RAAL ribbon in a number of Salk and Philharmonic Audio models, all of which were Dennis Murphy designs.

It's always hard to talk about a tweeter's sound, by itself, for at least 2 reasons. One is that most of the tweeter's sound with instruments or voices consists of harmonic overtones and not the primary tone. In a typical 2-way speaker, with a 6.5" woofer, the crossover is about 2 to 2.5 kHz. If you are familiar with a piano (Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network), only the highest 2 or 3 octaves on the right side of the keyboard are above that range.

The other reason is that you never listen to a tweeter alone, without a woofer and without a crossover. Recognizing that most of the primary tones are produced by the woofer, what I respond to when I "listen to a tweeter" is just how well a tweeter blends with the woofer.

First of all, a crossover designer must avoid using a tweeter at too low a frequency – most audible tweeter distortion results because of just that. Second, the crossover must also blend tweeter sound with the woofer. With sound in the crossover frequency range (± an octave), both drivers will produce roughly equal amounts of sound. They must be in acoustic phase with each other in that range. The tweeter's high pass curve and the woofer's low pass curve should be as symmetric with each other as possible. This is easier said than done, and is often the reason why some tweeters are said to be hard to work with, and others easy. If achieved, all this helps produce a cohesive and focused sound, and is largely responsible for producing good sound imaging.

A tweeter's upper frequency response (roughly 7 to 20 kHz) is not unimportant, but what makes a tweeter fail or succeed at "sounding good" is in its lower range (roughly 2 to 5 kHz). The crossover is right there. That's why I say you can't "listen to a tweeter" without noticing how well the crossover does its work.

OK, enough talk, how did those two tweeters sound? Neither of them were bad in any sense. I thought the Focal had a somewhat brighter overall sound balance, as if the crossover made the higher frequencies hotter than in the Salk and Philharmonic speakers. Of course, what I did not get to directly compare is how a Focal Be tweeter would sound compared to a RAAL tweeter when one crossover designer handled both designs.

That came out longer than I wanted. I hope someone follows all that .

Thanks Swerd. Looking back I realize it was kind of a naïve question. I agree it’s hard to evaluate a tweeter outside the context of a speaker overall, and that one of the keys is addressing the crossover challenge.
But your comments may be getting to why I like the Totems. Their literature emphasizes the uniqueness of their “crossoverless”design, having no active or passive crossover parts in the woofer section. The signal goes directly to the woofer, although they do admit there is a “simple” crossover to the tweeter.
The claim is this approach minimizes distortion, but more germane to your comments, it enables a much higher crossover point (5kHz). Perhaps their pulling this off successfully is what accounts for my liking the sound of the “Fire” model. The Fire also has a seven inch woofer, which may be helping what to me was solid bass, although I realize woofer size alone does not make bass in a speaker "good". (that’s a whole other discussion

 

[TheStalker]

Thanks Swerd. Looking back I realize it was kind of a naïve question. I agree it’s hard to evaluate a tweeter outside the context of a speaker overall, and that one of the keys is addressing the crossover challenge.
But your comments may be getting to why I like the Totems. Their literature emphasizes the uniqueness of their “crossoverless”design, having no active or passive crossover parts in the woofer section. The signal goes directly to the woofer, although they do admit there is a “simple” crossover to the tweeter.
The claim is this approach minimizes distortion, but more germane to your comments, it enables a much higher crossover point (5kHz). Perhaps their pulling this off successfully is what accounts for my liking the sound of the “Fire” model. The Fire also has a seven inch woofer, which may be helping what to me was solid bass, although I realize woofer size alone does not make bass in a speaker "good". (that’s a whole other discussion

Vince is a smart designer. He uses poly cones which have a very smooth roll-off with probably very little to no cone break-up. Since he builds the drivers himself, he can design whatever roll-off slope he desires, i.e. shallow LR2. Shallow crossover slopes is one key part of why his speakers sound so good. Most of the best manufacturers like Dynaudio and B&W use shallow slopes. They sound the best, but are also the hardest to design.

 

[twylight]

You earlier mentioned hearing Salk or Philharmonic speakers with the ribbon tweets. Which one?

Is your comment about the different overall presentation (I like that word to describe the effect of a crossover ) from dome or ribbon tweets a generic comment? Or have you heard a Dennis Murphy design with a dome tweet? If it wasn't one of Dennis's speakers, the difference you describe may be due to the crossover and not the tweeter per se.

I've heard standard SongTower and ribbon ST, and the ER18 MTM with dome and ribbon tweets. I find it's not easy to tell the difference.

Swerd I own the Philharmonic 2s and Salk Caow1, I dont have other tweeters in house other than the original SVS MBS 01v2...Im bringing in a pair of LW Orion 3.4s tomorrow, but I dont think they have BE tweeters...ive heard them at other homes and in stores.

 

[jbltmp]

All,
As an update, nothing’s changed in my thinking since my weekend blitz, so Totem “Fire” ($6K) is still at the top of my list, with Joseph Audio Pulsar ($7700) in second. My auditions of the Totems have been on a McIntosh MAC6700 receiver rated at 200 wpc ($6500). My next step (hopefully Thursday) will be listening to them at another dealer running on a Bryston B135 SST2 integrated (135 wpc, $4695+$375 for remote). Also, on the recommendation of a couple of forum members whose opinions I’ve come to value as this post has evolved I have connected with Jim Salk regarding comparable models in his line to consider. I’m waiting to hear back from him, but the “Exotica Monitor” ($5995/pr) seems an appropriate candidate given it’s about the same price as the $6K Totems. I’ll keep you "posted" on that.

So on this Christmas eve I’d like to thank all of you who’ve followed and contributed to this post thus far. It’s been extremely valuable to me by introducing many new options. In return I thought I’d present you with a stocking stuffer and list all the speakers I have considered to at least some extent in my search. For many of these my consideration was primarily based on on-line research or contacts with manufacturers. I actually listened to about 60% of them. They’re in no particular order, and represent a wide price range.

If I eliminated any of them it may not have been because of their sound. It could have been any number of factors from appearance, electronics or room compatibility, accessibility, dealer quality, forum input, power handling, efficiency, price (to some extent), etc., etc., etc. I think most of the prices are correct, but don’t rely on these because there may be some errors.

As such, this listing may a pink elephant of a gift that’s of little value other than giving you more of my perspective, but if you’re searching (and aren’t we all?) I think many of the speakers on it that are in your price range are worth considering for a “short list” of your own.

As many of you suggested, the most important evaluation will be the in-home trial, which at this point I’m planning at least for my front runner.

So here’s the list below. Although I was hunting for stand mounts, a few floor standers slipped in along the way. For some I’ve added my fleeting impressions, again for whatever they're worth. Have a great holiday.

• Polk LSiM703, $1500 – Reviewed well and could be a good deal. I’d like to have heard them
• KEF R300, $1800 – As good or better than the McIntosh XR50’s at $4000
• Monitor Audio PL100, $5750 w/ stands
• Paradigm Signature S2, $3900 w/ stands – A very good speaker, but I heard just a few things significantly not right
• Joseph Audio Pulsar, $7700 – My #2 choice, but I’d hate having to use spade lugs
• Dali Epicon 2, $8000 w/ stands – Great speaker, but for that price I’d invest more and go with the Dynaudio Confidence C1 at $9K
• ProAc Response D Two, $3500
• Epos Elan 15, $1400
• Epos Elan 35, $2400
• Spendor SP1/2R2, $6800 – Too “polite” for me
• Aperion Speakers – Recommended on forum, but don’t think the stand mount would compete at upper end of the price range I’m considering
• KEF LS50 – Great recommendation (thx Ponzio). I think anyone seeking mini-monitors should listen
• Totem Acoustic Element Ember, $4200 – focused on big brother Fire
• Totem Acoustic Element Fire, $6000 – My #1 at this point
• JBL Studio 590, $2000 – Always loved the better quality JBL’s and would have definitely auditioned if I wanted floor standers
• Klipsch RF-7 II, $3400 – Pretty in cherry
• Sonus Faber Olympica 1, $6500. Stands priced at $1200 pr - Good speaker, but I don’t get the hype I’ve heard over these and won’t pay $1200 for stands
• Monitor Audio RX6, $1200 – Great top end and overall value
• Thiel SCS4, $2300 – Respect the name and liked the form factor, but not the sound
• B&W CM5, $1900 w/ stands – Should have spent more time with these
• B&W CM9, $3000 – Hopeful going in but just not impressed
• B&W PM1, $3350 w/ stands – Disappointed. Didn’t expect much bass but heard even less
• B&W 805D, $5700 w/ stands – OK, but I found site and sound of tweeter distracting
• B&W 804D, $7500 – Same as above, although fared better when switched from Marantz to McIntosh
• Revel Performa3 M106, $2500 w/ stands – To me the best value among stand mounts I heard
• Revel Performa3 F206, $3500 – Also a good value for rooms too big for the F208
• Revel Performa3 F208, $5000
• Focal 1008BE – Should have made a point to hear these, but couldn’t find a dealer anywhere near who’d home demo
• McIntosh XR50, $4000 – what I’d expect from an amp company going beyond their core competency
• Dynaudio Contour S 1.4, $3,300
• Dynaudio Confidence C1 Signature, $9000 w/ stands – world class in most respects, just not my cup of tea

 

[Swerd]

Swerd I own the Philharmonic 2s and Salk Caow1, I dont have other tweeters in house other than the original SVS MBS 01v2...Im bringing in a pair of LW Orion 3.4s tomorrow, but I dont think they have BE tweeters...ive heard them at other homes and in stores.

Nice speakers ! You have two speakers that I think have excellent dome and ribbon tweeters, and both are very well-executed crossover designs. I don't think the BE tweeters offer anything superior to those.

I also have CAOW1s (which I built), and SongTowers with dome tweeters (which I didn't build ).

 

[Swerd]

But your comments may be getting to why I like the Totems. Their literature emphasizes the uniqueness of their “crossoverless”design, having no active or passive crossover parts in the woofer section. The signal goes directly to the woofer, although they do admit there is a “simple” crossover to the tweeter.

The claim is this approach minimizes distortion, but more germane to your comments, it enables a much higher crossover point (5kHz). Perhaps their pulling this off successfully is what accounts for my liking the sound of the “Fire” model. The Fire also has a seven inch woofer, which may be helping what to me was solid bass, although I realize woofer size alone does not make bass in a speaker "good". (that’s a whole other discussion

Interesting, a "crossoverless" design. That made me go look at Totem's web page for the Element Fire, but I didn't find any details about it's crossover design. Is there a web page that says more about this?

If I understand you, the woofer has no low-pass filter, and the tweeter has a "simple" high-pass filter. To me, the words "simple" tweeter crossover suggests a single capacitor, and possibly a resistor or two. That would be consistent with a crossover point as high as 5 kHz, but it would have a shallow slope, allowing significant tweeter sound as low as two octaves below 5 kHz, well below 2 kHz.

The woofer would produce sound up to the frequency at which it naturally rolls off. If well behaved in its roll off, there might be no audible break up noise, but sound from most if not all 7" woofers at frequencies much higher than roughly 2.5 kHz might beam with little off axis sound. Blending that with a tweeter might be difficult.

I'm not saying a design like this is impossible, but I am saying it would require careful design.

 

[jbltmp]

Interesting, a "crossoverless" design. That made me go look at Totem's web page for the Element Fire, but I didn't find any details about it's crossover design. Is there a web page that says more about this?

If I understand you, the woofer has no low-pass filter, and the tweeter has a "simple" high-pass filter. To me, the words "simple" tweeter crossover suggests a single capacitor, and possibly a resistor or two. That would be consistent with a crossover point as high as 5 kHz, but it would have a shallow slope, allowing significant tweeter sound as low as two octaves below 5 kHz, well below 2 kHz.

The woofer would produce sound up to the frequency at which it naturally rolls off. If well behaved in its roll off, there might be no audible break up noise, but sound from most if not all 7" woofers at frequencies much higher than roughly 2.5 kHz might beam with little off axis sound. Blending that with a tweeter might be difficult.

I'm not saying a design like this is impossible, but I am saying it would require careful design.

Agree this would be hard to pull off for all the reasons you state. The design is discussed more in reviews of the speakers I found on-line such as:

Totem Acoustic Element Fire Compact Speakers Review | CANADA HiFi Magazine

Totem Element Ember Compact Speakers Review | CANADA HiFi Magazine

Some of the reviews like the one immediately above have been of the "Ember", which is the Fire's little brother. But it uses the same design concept.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

• Sonus Faber Olympica 1, $6500. Stands priced at $1200 pr - Good speaker, but I don’t get the hype I’ve heard over these and won’t pay $1200 for stands
• B&W CM9, $3000 – Hopeful going in but just not impressed
• B&W PM1, $3350 w/ stands – Disappointed. Didn’t expect much bass but heard even less
• B&W 805D, $5700 w/ stands – OK, but I found site and sound of tweeter distracting
• B&W 804D, $7500 – Same as above, although fared better when switched from Marantz to McIntosh
• Dynaudio Confidence C1 Signature, $9000 w/ stands – world class in most respects, just not my cup of tea

What? I don't understand. These are the unequivocal absolute best speakers in the world regardless of price. How could they not be your cup of tea?

 

[jbltmp]

To each his own.

 

[jbltmp]

Listened to Totem Fires today on Bryston B135 SST2 integrated amp. Sounded overly bright.

McIntosh seems to be a better match.

Gotta' get the home audition going.

 

[TheStalker]

Listened to Totem Fires today on Bryston B135 SST2 integrated amp. Sounded overly bright.

McIntosh seems to be a better match.

Gotta' get the home audition going.

Bright was my problem with most Totem speakers like the Hawk, Model 1, etc. Having said that, Totem Forest is absolutely amazing with incredible balance. And I still have not heard the Element series.

 

[mark620]

I just skimmed threw this thread and noticed there was no talk in buying raw drivers and having a cabinets made. The amount of money he is willing to spend is big money. What about companies like Seas audio and Scan Speak with custom cabinets from someone like taylorspeakers.com. I by no means have that kind of money but I am going to build a set of Seas for myself for about $1k and in the reviews have read they blow away speakers 5x the price. Just wondering if you thought about getting some built.

 

[ImcLoud]

Mark, you are not thinking like an audiophile. You want a $5000 speaker that sounds like a $1000 speaker than you know you are into high end....

Seriously though, DIY is the best bang for buck, but the problem is it lacks the prestige of having a $6000 pair of bookshelf speakers, a $7000 amplifier, and some $1000 cables....

My brother and I bought some epic 2's {after I heard them I had to have a set, very nice speaker if you ever get the chance to listen to them, do it}, I power mine with a tp60 and the entire rig cost me around $500 {there's a post around here about it}. Well about 2 months ago my brothers buddy had the local hi fi shoppe bringing him some bookshelfs to demo for his home office, he didn't want subs or towers just a nice set of books and a small amp to run off his PC. He wanted my brother there to be an extra set of ears, and my brother brought with him his tp60 and epic 2's {never mentioning what he paid for them}, well the hi fi salesman wasn't familiar with the Epos line {weird?} and he brought some really nice bookshelfs with him, focals, BW, and Sonus from $3000 to $9000 {on sale lol}.

They hooked and unhooked a few amps and the sets of speakers, but my brother had already played the epics for him before the salesman got there, and they were playing when the salesman walked in.... Nothing he brought sounded leaps and bounds above the epics which is what Jay expected, my brother explained that, at a certain point you pay 20 times more for 5% better sound, and "better" is dependent on the listener.... He ended up buying a set of demo Sonus Faber Cremona's for $4000 OTD with stands and he didn't buy an amp off of them he bought an Outlaw receiver off of my brother for $500 {my brother used it 4 times if that, lol}, and my brother said it sounds good, but while they have stronger mids the highs in the epics sound better {I may have reversed that, it was a while ago}...
So the moral of the story is there is equipment out there that doesn't cost much and performs very well, but the problem is "it doesn't cost much", I have friends with High End Thiel sets powered by Mcintosh racks that cost as much as a new pickup truck, and they come over and listen to my Emo powered wharfedale speakers {I bought on sale}, that you can tell feel sick when I say the entire 2.2 start to finish cost me around $2500, because the $20K system they bought doesn't look that much better, doesn't sound that much better, but costs 10 times more...
I can afford what ever system I want, Sure my wife may go cross eyed for a few minutes if she heard I spent $200K on a Utopia system but we wouldn't have to live in it when the bill came, and I still have not heard the speaker that sounds good enough for me to spend more than a couple thousand on a set... I really like the PSB imagine T2's, one of my favorite towers is the Epic Encore 50's {$10K} and the $3500 T2's sound better to me, and them encore 50s sounded better than most others I have heard...

A good way to consider speakers is listening and then use the price to make your choice, so if you put 3 sets of speakerrs in front of you, one is $2K, then $4K, then $6K, you need to figure out if each sounds $2K better than the previous, this is going to depend on how much "a little bit" is worth to you...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just skimmed threw this thread and noticed there was no talk in buying raw drivers and having a cabinets made. The amount of money he is willing to spend is big money. What about companies like Seas audio and Scan Speak with custom cabinets from someone like taylorspeakers.com. I by no means have that kind of money but I am going to build a set of Seas for myself for about $1k and in the reviews have read they blow away speakers 5x the price. Just wondering if you thought about getting some built.

After you skim through this thread and read reviews of $1K DIY speakers that "BLOW AWAY" $5K speakers, ask yourself if it's really a fact or just 100% pure subjective opinions.

Most of us don't really feel like spending that kind of time building speakers.

How many hours would it take from start to finish?

Many of us could probably make a lot more money working overtime.

Many reasons.

 

[ImcLoud]

After you skim through this thread and read reviews of $1K DIY speakers that "BLOW AWAY" $5K speakers, ask yourself if it's really a fact or just 100% pure subjective opinions.

Most of us don't really feel like spending that kind of time building speakers.

How many hours would it take from start to finish?

Many of us could probably make a lot more money working overtime.

Many reasons.

You need to hire someone to do the work for you, then you will have the time to build speakers , I used to work for $58 an hour, then figured it out, I can have 5 guys working for me, pay them $25 an hour, charge $90 and still make my $50-60 per hour except times 5 {during normal business hours of course, after hours is much more}... I don't thinnk its the time that stops people from DIY, I think its the skill, years ago people could clean their own boilers and furnaces, the instructions that came with the old stuff actually explained how to service them, so most {not some} people did their own service, then as time went by and people stopped showing interest in servicing their own equipment coupled with it getting more advanced there is hardly any home owners that would dare touch their boiler to service it. From Friday night to 10am this morning, my techs did 21 service calls {all charged night/weekend rate} and as I go over these slips I see "change thermocouple" $177 {customer could have gotten the part at lowes and done it for $12 with a 7/16" wrench and 5 minutes of time}, "clean electrodes set nozzle and z dimension" $205 {no cost of parts, just 20 minutes of time and a $3 tool}, "clean HSI and flame sensor" $215 {no parts 20 minutes}, not one of these slips is something the customer couldn't have figured out with the internet and fixed themselves, 1 was a burner transformer and would require a special tester but its only 2 screws to change it out that service call was over $300. So people no longer do stuff for themselves, they don't care to and would rather spend the money, after all you can build your own kitchen cabinets but you buy them, you can clean your own gutters and chimney but you hire someone, you can cook your own food but you still go out to eat {that one may be reaching}...

So if you have the drive, time, and skills to build your own speaker that sounds better than what you can buy for that price {subjectively of course} then you would be crazy not to...

 

[jbltmp]

Good thoughts back and forth on the customs. I have had some customs built in the past, with reasonably good results, but that was for an application wherein nothing else existed that would fit my requirements.

This time around through auditions in dealer showrooms I’m finding several alternatives for my needs, but haven’t yet determined the law of diminishing returns price point among them. I don’t think I have to spend beyond $6k because I found a pair of Totems at that price which I feel are great speakers and will do most everything I’m seeking, and nothing else beyond that delivered significant, if any, improvement for me. I don’t know if the Totems are worth $6K, but worth is a relative term that I’m defining for myself as I go along. I know they sound significantly better TO ME than some $2K and $4k models I heard, and given the amount of time I will have them I’m willing to spend the extra dollars. When I look at the design and engineering that has gone into the Totem “Fires” woofer for example, I didn’t see anything close to it in speakers up to $9K.

But there are so many variables to consider besides the show room sound. I have to get these speakers home, along with the choice of amplifiers I’m considering. Fortunately there are some dealers in my area with liberal home trial policies. I may home audition some of the less expensive speakers also that I think are quite good, and maybe discover one of them gives close to the same performance as the Totems in my listening room.

Bottom line is as much as possible I want to know what I’ll be getting before I spend a dime, and feel confident I’ve made the best price/performance choice for me - and I just can’t do that with a custom speaker. Yes maybe I could spend a couple of thousand to have good drivers and crossovers built into a well-designed cabinet, but the combo may just not come out right for me. In that case I’ve wasted $2000 on a pair of customs that I couldn’t resell. Then I’d go back to the Totems, for example, and have effectively spent $8K to get the sound I wanted. That’s a risk I’m not willing to take.

But now I think I’m going to go downstairs and clean my burner!

 

[ImcLoud]

Their your ears and its your money, so you need to buy what makes sense to you, only you know what you like and what its worth to you, did you try out the psb One B's?