Standmount speakers: $2K, 4K or $6K?

[Swerd]

You've been very busy . I have to agree with your thoughts about spending $9k for speakers & stands. For that amount they should be perfect both acoustically and visually. But I would say the same about spending $6k!

It (Dynaudio C1) was by far the most detailed and precise speaker I’ve heard, where I felt I was getting the most information off the recording I ever had. But compared to the Totem Element Fires the bottom end of the C1’s was less satisfying to me. It just seems like the woofer rolls off a bit too soon, and I was afraid I’d be leaping for a bass tone control which I won’t have, or a sub which I don’t want, to round out the overall sound. Artificial or not, the Totem just sounded fuller and more satisfying.

I caution you about room location and apparent bass response (below about 250 to 300 Hz). Small changes in speaker or listener location can easily make for large differences in this frequency region. Sound reflected from walls, ceiling, or floor can arrive at the listener out of phase with sound coming directly from the speaker, causing apparently poor bass response. Likewise, reflected sound can boost response if it arrives at the listener in phase. Small changes in speaker and listener location can make large changes for sound in this frequency range. You may be well aware of this, but it's always worth repeating.

… I couldn’t reconcile paying $1200 for stands that are required to have them sound their best.

You may have completely different beliefs about things like speaker stands than I have , but I believe that no speaker stand costing $1200 is worth that price. The important thing is having stands that don't wobble or vibrate, and support the speakers at the right height (roughly listener's ear level) off the floor.

… I am trying to figure out how to audition the Veracity HT1’s. (Does anyone out there have any idea of what they would cost?...I couldn’t find any indication on the Salk web site)

Go here Veracity ht1 - home, and click on the Pricing link on the left side of the web page, Veracity ht1 - pricing. Price with standard veneers is $2700 plus shipping. Custom veneers include the extra cost of any veneer you choose. Click on the Galleries link on the top banner for a sample of some of the wide variety of custom finishes.

Note that the tweeter presently used in nearly all Salk speakers appears somewhat different than in the older HT1 photo. Look at the tweeter in this link HT2-TL - home to see the tweeter that presently comes with the HT1.

Another high quality small stand mount speaker that might interest you is the Salk Silk SILK - home. It costs $3500 plus shipping.

If nice looking stands are important in your choice, Jim Salk does custom woodwork and will make matching stands.

The reason why I offer a wide range recommendation to Salk speakers, is that I live nearby the speaker designer, Dennis Murphy. He has long been involved in DIY speaker design (that's how I first met him), is a semi-pro musician, and has what I have come to believe is the best sense of how a loudspeaker should sound. Yes, crossovers can and do affect a speaker's sound that much! His designs all share a common sound of an overall neutral tone balance, and have a level of detail and image-creation that I do not find elsewhere until the Joseph Audio price range.

 

[TheStalker]

The Veracity HT1's start at $2700 + shipping and go up from there. You would contact Jim Salk at the e-mail address listed on the website and give him your location and ask him if he has any customers near you that would be willing to demo. You may also want to check out Philharmonic Audio. They're a company owned and operated by Dennis Murphy who does a lot of crossover work for Salk and his speakers are excellent as well, although the Salks definitely have better fit and finish.

I wouldn't go with the Mc integrated, just because I think you can do at least as well for the money and give yourself more flexibility in the end.

One last thing, if anyone tells you to stay away from ID companies or that the RAAL is "nothing special" or that they aren't some of the better speakers out there, take that with a grain of salt. A very large one. Remember, those red bars don't get there by magic

Cheers, and good luck with your search.

What the OP should remember is that you are a shill by your own advertisement on this forum.

 

[zieglj01]

Finally, I heard a lot of good electronics along the way, which really have me re-thinking the McIntosh integrated decision. Maybe that’s where the journey turns next.

I would explore other options - and less costly ones for sure.

 

[Ponzio]

jbltmp ... did you ever home demo the Pulsar's? I'm interested to hear your impressions, especially in the room (13'x15') they're going into.

 

[fuzz092888]

What the OP should remember is that you are a shill by your own advertisement on this forum.

Love you too buddy

 

[Adam]

...you are a shill by your own advertisement...

Not to nitpick, but you can't be a shill if you advertise the relationship.

 

[fuzz092888]

Not to nitpick, but you can't be a shill if you advertise the relationship.

Not to mention that if I'm a shill, that would also imply that the brand I'm "shilling" for is dishonest and/or ripping off customers in some way. I don't think he's to get a lot of support if he's calling Dennis' work dishonest/a rip-off.

 

[jbltmp]

You've been very busy . I have to agree with your thoughts about spending $9k for speakers & stands. For that amount they should be perfect both acoustically and visually. But I would say the same about spending $6k!


I caution you about room location and apparent bass response (below about 250 to 300 Hz). Small changes in speaker or listener location can easily make for large differences in this frequency region. Sound reflected from walls, ceiling, or floor can arrive at the listener out of phase with sound coming directly from the speaker, causing apparently poor bass response. Likewise, reflected sound can boost response if it arrives at the listener in phase. Small changes in speaker and listener location can make large changes for sound in this frequency range. You may be well aware of this, but it's always worth repeating.

Yes, I did experiment with positioning but got pretty conistent results, in the dealer's showroom at least.

You may have completely different beliefs about things like speaker stands than I have , but I believe that no speaker stand costing $1200 is worth that price. The important thing is having stands that don't wobble or vibrate, and support the speakers at the right height (roughly listener's ear level) off the floor.

I completely agree with you.


Go here Veracity ht1 - home, and click on the Pricing link on the left side of the web page, Veracity ht1 - pricing. Price with standard veneers is $2700 plus shipping. Custom veneers include the extra cost of any veneer you choose. Click on the Galleries link on the top banner for a sample of some of the wide variety of custom finishes.

Note that the tweeter presently used in nearly all Salk speakers appears somewhat different than in the older HT1 photo. Look at the tweeter in this link HT2-TL - home to see the tweeter that presently comes with the HT1.

Another high quality small stand mount speaker that might interest you is the Salk Silk SILK - home. It costs $3500 plus shipping.

If nice looking stands are important in your choice, Jim Salk does custom woodwork and will make matching stands.

The reason why I offer a wide range recommendation to Salk speakers, is that I live nearby the speaker designer, Dennis Murphy. He has long been involved in DIY speaker design (that's how I first met him), is a semi-pro musician, and has what I have come to believe is the best sense of how a loudspeaker should sound. Yes, crossovers can and do affect a speaker's sound that much! His designs all share a common sound of an overall neutral tone balance, and have a level of detail and image-creation that I do not find elsewhere until the Joseph Audio price range.

Thanks for the info on Salk

 

[jbltmp]

Didn't get to hear them at home. Though they're kind of a distant 2nd choice to the Totems for me, I am tempted to set up the home demo. I'm just not sure I want to ask the dealer, who works out of his home, to go through the hassle. They're his personal pair and he wants to shepherd them along the way (I don't blame him).

 

[cpp]

What the OP should remember is that you are a shill by your own advertisement on this forum.

I was wondering Stalker is this you from AVS Nagys Audio - Home - Provider of High End Audio Interconnect Cables

 

[TheStalker]

I was wondering Stalker is this you from AVS Nagys Audio - Home - Provider of High End Audio Interconnect Cables

No sir......

 

[Audio_Karma]

Another monitor you might want to check out are the Prana Fidelity Fifty 90

Home

 

[twylight]

OP...if you cant get them in home I would consider the following:

For Price/Sound Value any Raal based offering is going to stomp a retail store offering (Salk, Philharmonic I have heard, Ascend and others should be similar)
They also have a good resale value as people are used to buying them online...

If I rebooted my room I would go on audiogon and buy some stuff used...well everything. If I had a pile of cash I would buy Salk Soundscape 12s and some subs and be done.

 

[TheStalker]

Appreciate the comments, and cautions relative to internet direct. I will keep the larger scale Focals in mind for other applications. Speaking of larger scale, I got to see (but not hear) the Wilson MAXX 3's in one of the stores I visited yesterday. Crazy stuff. Listed at $76K but "demo" pair on sale for $55K,,,what a bargain!

Be interested to hear your impressions of the Totems when you have an opportunity to hear them.

Check out the Focal Electra 1008 Be. Those are medium sized monitors retailing for $5500, but usually can be purchased for much less.

I'm very familiar with the Wilson MAXX 3s. Great speakers! But at that price, you can build these for under $10,000 and have even better sound: ATS-4

The Beryllium Scanspeak tweeter is out of this world and the Audio Technica woofers are the best there is period. I can even recommend a cabinet manufacturer which could make the boxes and finish them as well as the Wilson speakers.

 

[jbltmp]

Check out the Focal Electra 1008 Be. Those are medium sized monitors retailing for $5500, but usually can be purchased for much less.

Just checked it out on-line. Good looking speaker, and I bet the stand doesn't cost $1200!

I'm very familiar with the Wilson MAXX 3s. Great speakers! But at that price, you can build these for under $10,000 and have even better sound: ATS-4

Well, I don't think I could build them, but maybe I could pay someone to.

The Beryllium Scanspeak tweeter is out of this world and the Audio Technica woofers are the best there is period. I can even recommend a cabinet manufacturer which could make the boxes and finish them as well as the Wilson speakers.

 

[jbltmp]

OP...if you cant get them in home I would consider the following:

For Price/Sound Value any Raal based offering is going to stomp a retail store offering (Salk, Philharmonic I have heard, Ascend and others should be similar)
They also have a good resale value as people are used to buying them online...

If I rebooted my room I would go on audiogon and buy some stuff used...well everything. If I had a pile of cash I would buy Salk Soundscape 12s and some subs and be done.

How would you characterize the Raal as compared to the Focal beryllium sound? (if you've heard the latter)

 

[Ponzio]

Didn't get to hear them at home. Though they're kind of a distant 2nd choice to the Totems for me, I am tempted to set up the home demo. I'm just not sure I want to ask the dealer, who works out of his home, to go through the hassle. They're his personal pair and he wants to shepherd them along the way (I don't blame him).

I got say, those Totem Elemental Fire's musty be pretty dam good if you think the Pulsar's are a "distant 2nd choice". Will definitely have to check them out at my local B&M in the coming new year. I have to admit I was impressed by the Totem's I heard (Staff model especially) but I found alternative manufacturer's models that sounded just as good at a lower price point (Focal, Dynaudio, etc.) but time marches on and maybe Totem is on to something. Good luck, whatever you decide and keep us in the loop.

 

[jbltmp]

Would really value your opinion on the Totems, and look forward to it. I think they'd be best with warmer-sounding amps, for me at least.

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for keeping us informed about your speaker search. It's always interesting to read, and few people make such a serious effort or look in the price range that you are.

How would you characterize the Raal as compared to the Focal beryllium sound? (if you've heard the latter)

I have heard both tweeters. I heard the Focal in a small stand mounted self-powered 2-way. It might have been either the CMS-50 or the Electra 1008 Be. I can't remember the model name, but I am certain it had the Focal beryllium tweeter. And I've heard the RAAL ribbon in a number of Salk and Philharmonic Audio models, all of which were Dennis Murphy designs.

It's always hard to talk about a tweeter's sound, by itself, for at least 2 reasons. One is that most of the tweeter's sound with instruments or voices consists of harmonic overtones and not the primary tone. In a typical 2-way speaker, with a 6.5" woofer, the crossover is about 2 to 2.5 kHz. If you are familiar with a piano (Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network), only the highest 2 or 3 octaves on the right side of the keyboard are above that range.

The other reason is that you never listen to a tweeter alone, without a woofer and without a crossover. Recognizing that most of the primary tones are produced by the woofer, what I respond to when I "listen to a tweeter" is just how well a tweeter blends with the woofer.

First of all, a crossover designer must avoid using a tweeter at too low a frequency – most audible tweeter distortion results because of just that. Second, the crossover must also blend tweeter sound with the woofer. With sound in the crossover frequency range (± an octave), both drivers will produce roughly equal amounts of sound. They must be in acoustic phase with each other in that range. The tweeter's high pass curve and the woofer's low pass curve should be as symmetric with each other as possible. This is easier said than done, and is often the reason why some tweeters are said to be hard to work with, and others easy. If achieved, all this helps produce a cohesive and focused sound, and is largely responsible for producing good sound imaging.

A tweeter's upper frequency response (roughly 7 to 20 kHz) is not unimportant, but what makes a tweeter fail or succeed at "sounding good" is in its lower range (roughly 2 to 5 kHz). The crossover is right there. That's why I say you can't "listen to a tweeter" without noticing how well the crossover does its work.

OK, enough talk, how did those two tweeters sound? Neither of them were bad in any sense. I thought the Focal had a somewhat brighter overall sound balance, as if the crossover made the higher frequencies hotter than in the Salk and Philharmonic speakers. Of course, what I did not get to directly compare is how a Focal Be tweeter would sound compared to a RAAL tweeter when one crossover designer handled both designs.

That came out longer than I wanted. I hope someone follows all that .

 

[twylight]

The mid range and crossover is as important or more important to sound. In the speakers I have heard with RAAL the overall presentation was more of a wall of sound, with dome tweeters and midranges i can usually pinpoint where the speaker is (direct radiating). With the RAALs its not as specific a location which gives a much larger soundstage in my opinion.