Speaker Recommendations For Loud Home Theater

[dpriest]

Hi all,
I bought the KEF Q350 speakers for my L & R speakers and the R6 Meta for my center channel a few weeks ago. I chose these over the Polk L200, R400, Arendal 1723S Monitors and 1961 center channel and the Outlaw speakers which I also tried.

What I really like about the Q350s is the bass level and separation of the highs, mids and lows. More importantly is the clarity of dialogue in the center channel. This is why I chose the R6 Meta even over the Q650C.
THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS.

NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS:
The bad news with the Q350s is that I blew them twice. First time KEF thought some clipping caused them to blow when connected to my Yamaha Aventage RX A6A so I bought the Rotel RB-1582 MkII 200W amp to power the Q350s. One of the Q350s just blew while I was watching King Kong. I set the crossover of the Q350s at 80hz. I like to watch movies with high volume which was +1.5db. I have dual SVS PB-3000 subs as well. The home theater experience is amazing but obviously these speakers can't handle it.

I can still return these to Crutchfield because it hasn't been 60 days yet. Is the volume too loud realistically to watch movies without blowing speakers or are there more robust bookshelves speakers that can handle high volume in a home theater environment. If so, what do you recommend?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi all,
I bought the KEF Q350 speakers for my L & R speakers and the R6 Meta for my center channel a few weeks ago. I chose these over the Polk L200, R400, Arendal 1723S Monitors and 1961 center channel and the Outlaw speakers which I also tried.

What I really like about the Q350s is the bass level and separationg of the highs, mids and lows. More importantly is the clarity of dialogue in the center channel. This is why I chose the R6 Meta even over the Q650C.
THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS.

NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS:
The bad news with the Q350s is that I blew them twice. First time KEF thought some clipping caused them to blow when connected to my Yamaha Aventage RX A6A so I bought the Rotel RB-1582 MkII 200W amp to power the Q350s. One of the Q350s just blew while I was watching King Kong. I set the crossover of the Q350s at 80hz. I like to watch movies with high volume which was +1.5db. I have dual SVS PB-3000 subs as well. The home theater experience is amazing but obviously these speakers can't handle it.

I can still return these to Crutchfield because it hasn't been 60 days yet. Is the volume too loud realistically to watch movies without blowing speakers or are there more robust bookshelves speakers that can handle high volume in a home theater environment. If so, what do you recommend?

Watching movies at +1.5db is insane. You will blow your ears out and need hearing aids. I suspect you were probably clipping whatever you were driving those speakers with, which was a contributing factor.

You will not find any bookshelf speaker anywhere that will handle huge power. The reason is that there is only one woofer VC handling that power and the heat just can't be removed from the small VC gap quick enough, so the coil fries. The tweeter VC is even smaller,but takes less power, but doing what you are doing will blow that VC also.

So the first thing you have to do is to learn not to abuse equipment. If not, you need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on large very powerful speakers and expensive amplification to power it. If not you will blow speaker after speaker and also receivers.

Designing and installing speakers and equipment to play at concert levels and not even your insane levels is a challenging task. I use speakers with multiple drivers, powered by 18 power amp channels providing 3,200 watts. But I don't do what you do, and I still have my hearing.

You have two choices, you can listen at saner levels with bookshelf speakers, or draw up a major complex system with enough amps to never clip. The spec. for your speaker is 15 to 120 watts. However speaker manufacturers never specify how long they will take that power. But I can tell you that in speakers like that 120 watts will just be for a matter of a few seconds, and the continuous power much nearer to 15 watts.

 

[dpriest]

Watching movies at +1.5db is insane. You will blow your ears out and need hearing aids. I suspect you were probably clipping whatever you were driving those speakers with, which was a contributing factor.

You will not find any bookshelf speaker anywhere that will handle huge power. The reason is that there is only one woofer VC handling that power and the heat just can't be removed from the small VC gap quick enough, so the coil fries. The tweeter VC is even smaller,but takes less power, but doing what you are doing will blow that VC also.

So the first thing you have to do is to learn not to abuse equipment. If not, you need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on large very powerful speakers and expensive amplification to power it. If not you will blow speaker after speaker and also receivers.

Designing and installing speakers and equipment to play at concert levels and not even your insane levels is a challenging task. I use speakers with multiple drivers, powered by 18 power amp channels providing 3,200 watts. But I don't do what you do, and I still have my hearing.

You have two choices, you can listen at saner levels with bookshelf speakers, or draw up a major complex system with enough amps to never clip.

Thanks. I needed to hear that, and no I haven't lost my hearing at least yet. I am driving the Q350s with the Rotel RB-1582 MkII 200W amp. I thought with a 200W per channel dedicated amp the speakers could handle the power without any clipping but I am learning every day so thank you for the feedback. Realistically what is the loudest volume that these speakers can safely handle accounting for explosive, bass rattling scenes in a movie?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks. I needed to hear that, and no I haven't lost my hearing at least yet. I am driving the Q350s with the Rotel RB-1582 MkII 200W amp. I thought with a 200W per channel dedicated amp the speakers could handle the power without any clipping but I am learning every day so thank you for the feedback. Realistically what is the loudest volume that these speakers can safely handle accounting for explosive, bass rattling scenes in a movie?

200 watts will blow any bookshelf speaker. It is impossible to say how much audio power any speaker will take, as the power is constantly fluctuating. Clipping usually blows tweeters, overdriving both drivers and crossover. Now no bookshelf speaker on earth is going to give you realistic cinema levels. If you want those levels then you need costly towers. People think that subs will save their speakers, they won't. Even in explosions with heavy bass, there is still a lot of acoustic energy above 80 Hz. You can test that by just listening to the sub only. What you will get is a rumble.

If you want cinema levels, then you need "big boy" speakers.

 

[dpriest]

200 watts will blow any bookshelf speaker. It is impossible to say how much audio power any speaker will take, as the power is constantly fluctuating. Clipping usually blows tweeters, overdriving both drivers and crossover. Now no bookshelf speaker on earth is going to give you realistic cinema levels. If you want those levels then you need costly towers. People think that subs will save their speakers, they won't. Even in explosions with heavy bass, there is still a lot of acoustic energy above 80 Hz. You can test that by just listening to the sub only. What you will get is a rumble.

If you want cinema levels, then you need "big boy" speakers.

OK. I don't have the room for floor standing speakers and also I would probably blow my ears anyway. Another thing I am trying to understand is the db level in a speaker compared to the negative db volume on the Yamaha receiver. For example, I now understand that 0db on the Yamaha is maximum volume and -15db means 15 db below maximum volume. My KEF speakers are rated at 87db sensitivity and 110db maximum output. Can you explain what this means and what the equivalent to 110db is on the Yamaha receiver?

 

[Bobby Bass]

Hi all,
I bought the KEF Q350 speakers for my L & R speakers and the R6 Meta for my center channel a few weeks ago. I chose these over the Polk L200, R400, Arendal 1723S Monitors and 1961 center channel and the Outlaw speakers which I also tried.

What I really like about the Q350s is the bass level and separation of the highs, mids and lows. More importantly is the clarity of dialogue in the center channel. This is why I chose the R6 Meta even over the Q650C.
THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS.

NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS:
The bad news with the Q350s is that I blew them twice. First time KEF thought some clipping caused them to blow when connected to my Yamaha Aventage RX A6A so I bought the Rotel RB-1582 MkII 200W amp to power the Q350s. One of the Q350s just blew while I was watching King Kong. I set the crossover of the Q350s at 80hz. I like to watch movies with high volume which was +1.5db. I have dual SVS PB-3000 subs as well. The home theater experience is amazing but obviously these speakers can't handle it.

I can still return these to Crutchfield because it hasn't been 60 days yet. Is the volume too loud realistically to watch movies without blowing speakers or are there more robust bookshelves speakers that can handle high volume in a home theater environment. If so, what do you recommend?

I have the same amp driving Arendal 1723 towers and I’ve cranked them up to 70% volume as a test while playing rock music with no problems. They can play louder than is safe for your hearing in my listening room. The monitors are very similar in build so they might work. The only issue may be that the monitors are huge and not really “bookshelf “ speakers. You can try Arendals for 60 days and return for a full refund if they don’t work for you. in the US They cover the shipping cost both ways. Good luck and safe listening.

 

[highfigh]

Hi all,
I bought the KEF Q350 speakers for my L & R speakers and the R6 Meta for my center channel a few weeks ago. I chose these over the Polk L200, R400, Arendal 1723S Monitors and 1961 center channel and the Outlaw speakers which I also tried.

What I really like about the Q350s is the bass level and separation of the highs, mids and lows. More importantly is the clarity of dialogue in the center channel. This is why I chose the R6 Meta even over the Q650C.
THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS.

NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS:
The bad news with the Q350s is that I blew them twice. First time KEF thought some clipping caused them to blow when connected to my Yamaha Aventage RX A6A so I bought the Rotel RB-1582 MkII 200W amp to power the Q350s. One of the Q350s just blew while I was watching King Kong. I set the crossover of the Q350s at 80hz. I like to watch movies with high volume which was +1.5db. I have dual SVS PB-3000 subs as well. The home theater experience is amazing but obviously these speakers can't handle it.

I can still return these to Crutchfield because it hasn't been 60 days yet. Is the volume too loud realistically to watch movies without blowing speakers or are there more robust bookshelves speakers that can handle high volume in a home theater environment. If so, what do you recommend?

The numbers you're using are meaningless and you're abuising this particular system. When someone properly designs a system, they need to consider many details, including the required SPL. This can be handled by finding the speaker sensitivity, power amplifier output voltage within the impedance range of the speakers, room size, distance from speakers to listeners, speaker power handling, high output duration and several others.

Speakers, especially in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, can't handle extremely high signal levels when the specs clearly show "Amplifier Requirements 15-120W".

High power causes the voice coil to become hot and if your woofers don't move, this is what happened. If the tweeters stopped working, you either damaged the cap(s) in the crossover or the voice coil(s).

If you want to use consumer audio equipment, you'll need to reduce the SPL, use more sensitive speakers, learn that it doesn't need to be as loud as you want and learn that your hearing won't survive the abuse you're forcing on them.

 

[dpriest]

I have the same amp driving Arendal 1723 towers and I’ve cranked them up to 70% volume as a test while playing rock music with no problems. They can play louder than is safe for your hearing in my listening room. The monitors are very similar in build so they might work. The only issue may be that the monitors are huge and not really “bookshelf “ speakers. You can try Arendals for 60 days and return for a full refund if they don’t work for you. in the US They cover the shipping cost both ways. Good luck and safe listening.

I already bought and tested the Arendal 1723S monitors along with the 1961 center channel. I chose the 1961 center because the 1723 center was too big for my space. Those are very nice speakers but the clarity of the dialogue from the center channel is much clearer with the KEF R6 Meta and the Q350 sound was on par with the 1723 S speakers.

 

[highfigh]

OK. I don't have the room for floor standing speakers and also I would probably blow my ears anyway. Another thing I am trying to understand is the db level in a speaker compared to the negative db volume on the Yamaha receiver. For example, I now understand that 0db on the Yamaha is maximum volume and -15db means 15 db below maximum volume. My KEF speakers are rated at 87db sensitivity and 110db maximum output. Can you explain what this means and what the equivalent to 110db is on the Yamaha receiver?

87dB sensitivity is relatively low, but for a high SPL system, it's extremely low- at 100W, the output will be in the 107dB area which is loud, but 200W is only 3dB louder. regardless, this WILL damage your hearing but the sound level won't be 107dB constantly, only when the source material demands it.

The display on the Yamaha is only for user reference, not meant to be an accurate representation of the signal level. It's not meant to be operated at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) 100% of the time- even a PA isn't operated that way, nor is it designed to be. 110dB means nothing WRT the Yamaha- all it can do is produce the output it was designed for and it's the speakers that determine the actual SPL with the signal level they receive.

ALL electronics have limits and a good example of what you're doing is trying to go faster in a car when the gas pedal is already on the floor- you can't make it louder if the Yamaha is at its limit, the speakers can't handle what you're sending them and if the amplifier is at its limit, you'll only continue to kill speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK. I don't have the room for floor standing speakers and also I would probably blow my ears anyway. Another thing I am trying to understand is the db level in a speaker compared to the negative db volume on the Yamaha receiver. For example, I now understand that 0db on the Yamaha is maximum volume and -15db means 15 db below maximum volume. My KEF speakers are rated at 87db sensitivity and 110db maximum output. Can you explain what this means and what the equivalent to 110db is on the Yamaha receiver?

The first disclaimer is that I don't live in the Yamaha universe. Having said that receivers seem to operate similarly. The next thing is that the db. scale is not absolute, but it is a comparative scale for comparing the loudness of one sound over another. There are some rules though. Perception of loudness is not linear but logarithmic. So the log. scale is a logarithmic scale. So if you advance your volume 3db. then you are DOUBLING the power to your speakers. If you want the power to seem twice as loud to you then you need to increase the volume by 10db. Remember every time you go up 3db you double the power to your speakers. So if you are listening at an average of 2 watts power, then if you go up 3db. then that is 4 watts to the speakers, doubling the power again by adding another 3db, you will require 8 watts. Adding another 3db. will get you to 16 watts. So that will now seem about twice as loud.

Now since db. is reference you don't reliably know the starting point. Also the sensitivity of the inputs on most receivers are adjustable in the set up menu. But assuming the input device roughly matches the input sensitivity, depending on room size and speaker sensitivity usual domestic listening levels are -30 to -10 db as a rule. With -10 db being pretty loud. You have to allow for the sensitivity of speakers, this is measured at 1 meter from the speaker with 1 watt of power. In general sound pressure drops by the square of the distance from the speaker. Speaker sensitivities usually cluster between 85 to 92 1 watt 1 meter. Larger speakers tend to be more sensitive, but there is no rule about this. So generally an increase of 3db, will be the first obvious increase in perceived volume, but if you listen carefully you will detect about 1.5db. But when you go up 3db. you have doubled your amp power. Your speaker have an output level of 110db. 1 meter. But that level drops by the square of the distance from the speaker.

Listening at levels around 0db. with normal input gains with most speakers will be bleeding loud and pretty much guaranteed to blow any bookshelf speaker and actually an awful lot of others. In addition receiver amps are not very robust, and so it will also give receivers a short life.

Basically, it is not unlike cars, if you are heavy footed drive fast and have a lead foot on the accelerator, it will spend more time and money with the mechanic and clap out sooner than if you drive it sensibly. That tends to be the rule for all mechanical systems.

Lastly, it is usually heat that destroys speakers. The heat is dissipated in the voice coil gap. When you pass electric current through a resistance it heats up. That is how an electric fire works. Now the heat output goes up by the square of the current. The physical formula for the heat produced is to multiply the resistance in ohms by the square of the current. So we have another logarithmic law. This is referred to often as the I squared R loss. In you speakers that number in watts is dissipated in the voice coils. At a critical temperature they blow, and you need new or rebuilt drivers. You pay. In this case it is likely Crutchfield that will pay, as the manufacturer will correctly identify abuse most likely. But in the end manufacturers and retailers don't pay, but we the consumers all do. So you are a problem for the rest of us, and so we are anxious for you to mend your ways.

 

[MrBoat]

OK. I don't have the room for floor standing speakers and also I would probably blow my ears anyway. Another thing I am trying to understand is the db level in a speaker compared to the negative db volume on the Yamaha receiver. For example, I now understand that 0db on the Yamaha is maximum volume and -15db means 15 db below maximum volume. My KEF speakers are rated at 87db sensitivity and 110db maximum output. Can you explain what this means and what the equivalent to 110db is on the Yamaha receiver?

Neutral speakers can fool us as to how loud they are. In the situation of music, We start out what sounds loud, and then after a short time, we are moving that volume up and up. Walk outside for a minute and then walk back in and it is noticeably very loud to us again for a moment. That's the true loudness before we adjust again. I keep a db meter at my seat. Speakers and equipment void of much in the way of audible distortion can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. My personal limit is around 87db at my seat, and I have worked in industry for over 40 years w/o hearing protection.

I am in a 12' x 20' room. I have all my gear across the narrow end of the room and I am using 12" 2-way monitors with horns with a sensitivity of 98db, along with a pair of 12" subs in a near field/semi-desktop setup. The room is fully furnished with two sofas and whatnot. The speakers I had in here before that were 15" 3-way floor standing speakers, so there is indeed, room for them.

Minimum size bookshelf speakers for anything near reaching concert level performance in my case, would be 8" and that is with them within 2-3ft of my reach. All of these 5-6" driver bookshelf designs that are all the rage now, leave me hanging, and I end up driving them to their absolute limits. Best thing about these tiny speakers being, they often cost as much as a tower, with 3x as many being able to be fit into a shipping container. From there, it's just convincing the masses that is all they need.

No replacement for displacement. I was told my ways based on this long known idea was antiquated and that new tech had somehow cheated the physics of all this with new found designs and efficiencies. After awhile it occurred to me, that most people who were telling me this, were henpecked men who were not allowed to have large speakers in "her" living room. They were wrong. Once one gets used to 'life-sized' sound, there is no going back. Even when idling along, the presence of the larger drivers is apparent. They just excite the air molecules differently. I look at 5" drivers as mid-range at best, and that would have to be crossed over like a 4-5" mid-range driver in say a 12-15" 3-way tower.

The other giveaway to these new concepts not fitting my criteria, is when I am being told that "They sound much bigger than they actually are." Well, no they don't, and I will never fall for that again. That right there tells me the bass is cheated with what amounts to a small subwoofer driver and cabinet tricks, than an actual mid-range driver, and the manufacturer is trying to satisfy too much of the market by making these poor little things do full-range duties. If a subwoofer driver is to be included in a full range design, it had better be a 3-way, and preferably with the mid driver in it's own compartment.

 

[TLS Guy]

I do agree with MrBoat. Bookshelf speakers are a waste of floor space. You are far better off using the footprint of the speaker stands for bigger more substantial speakers.

Realistic volume levels actually do take a lot of power considering the dynamic range of program. I have 3200 watts available. The sounds like a lot, but dropping the power level 3db gets us to 320 watts, lower it another 3db and that gets you to 32 watts. Nature is against us.

 

[kini]

Hi all,
I bought the KEF Q350 speakers for my L & R speakers and the R6 Meta for my center channel a few weeks ago. I chose these over the Polk L200, R400, Arendal 1723S Monitors and 1961 center channel and the Outlaw speakers which I also tried.

What I really like about the Q350s is the bass level and separation of the highs, mids and lows. More importantly is the clarity of dialogue in the center channel. This is why I chose the R6 Meta even over the Q650C.
THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS.

NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS:
The bad news with the Q350s is that I blew them twice. First time KEF thought some clipping caused them to blow when connected to my Yamaha Aventage RX A6A so I bought the Rotel RB-1582 MkII 200W amp to power the Q350s. One of the Q350s just blew while I was watching King Kong. I set the crossover of the Q350s at 80hz. I like to watch movies with high volume which was +1.5db. I have dual SVS PB-3000 subs as well. The home theater experience is amazing but obviously these speakers can't handle it.

I can still return these to Crutchfield because it hasn't been 60 days yet. Is the volume too loud realistically to watch movies without blowing speakers or are there more robust bookshelves speakers that can handle high volume in a home theater environment. If so, what do you recommend?

Pick something from here

Home Audio — JTR Speakers

www.jtrspeakers.com

 

[everettT]

Unless you step up to speakers like Danley or to a lesser degree JTR, you'll never get the output you think you want. But as mentioned by others, why would you want speakers that can handle 125db in a home environment unless you're specifically looking for hearing loss.

I'm pretty sure these aren't what you need or want unless you have small stadium in your home.

J3-64 | Danley Sound Labs

www.danleysoundlabs.com