Silicon Image Releases First HDMI 1.3 Chips

M

MAX661

Audioholic
Tawnos said:
The same? So all decoding chips and DAC's are the same? A $99 DVD player decodes the same as a multi thousand dollar processor such as a meridian, theta, or mcintosh? Who uses a DVD player now to decode the information and sends it as a PCM signal, no one so why would you do it with a hi def format?
Because it's a digital lossless format, you are still using the bass management and all the goodies your receiver or pre/pro has to offer in processing. You only bypass the receiver or pre/pro when you choose to go through the analog inputs.
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
Because it's a digital lossless format, you are still using the bass management and all the goodies your receiver or pre/pro has to offer in processing. You only bypass the receiver or pre/pro when you choose to go through the analog inputs.
Because everything sounds the same to you right?
 
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T

Tawnos

Banned
When you decode down to a PCM format you lose anything that use to be lossless which is the whole point.
 
M

MAX661

Audioholic
may I ask which equuipment you are using? and also why on the DOLBY DIGITAL sight does it say the best way to hook up your equipment to take full advantage of the new codecs is through HDMI 1.1

And I am not wrong you are not downgrading to PCM, you are simply sending it as a PCM and it looses NOTHING.

please show me proof to back up your claims that you NEED HDMI 1.3 for the new audio codecs.

Here is my proof:
http://www.dolby.com/promo/hd/connector_diagrams.html

and since we know HDMI 1.1 already outputs 1080p along with the new codecs, what is your point?
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Taken from the Dolby TrueHD info site
In HD disc players, the audio will be handled in the same fashion. Soundtracks decoded from the disc, as well as audio elements streamed or downloaded from an Internet connection or generated internally in the player, will be decoded in the player as digital PCM signals. PCM is the format players use to perform all internal audio processing operations, including mixing. In the mixing stage, streaming commentary, button sounds, and other non-disc-audio will be mixed with the native 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack from the disc. The result will be the complete audio presentation as intended by the content maker.


(see the link for Figure 1)

Figure 1 Next-Generation Six-Channel Optical Player
with Dolby Digital Output Encoder

The implications of this decoding within the player are significant. New features can be created for a given title long after the discs have shipped. More importantly, the fact that players will be mixing the audio internally means that it will no longer be possible (or necessary) to output raw audio bitstreams from the player as is typical with DVD-Video. As a result, consumers can no longer assume that every player will work with every A/V receiver.

Page 3
Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus in A/V Receivers
Eventually, A/V receivers will have direct access to Dolby® Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. We are working with the IEC and HDMI organizations to update data protocols to enable future versions of these high-bandwidth interfaces to carry these bitstreams.

To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player’s mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver.

With six or eight channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio to handle from these new HD formats, the post-processing DSP requirements for an A/V receiver more than double. Rather than devoting the considerable DSP resources to decoding the core audio signals within the A/V processor itself, it may be more fruitful to use the A/V processor’s DSP resources to perform high-resolution post-processing such as bass management, room or speaker equalization, Dolby Pro Logic® IIx decoding, or other types of digital signal processing.


(see the link for Figure 5)

Figure 5 Connection via Next-Generation HDMI

As a result of the quality and capabilities that the new digital interfaces provide, hardware manufacturers can offer more highly optimized system designs that attain the ultimate in performance while providing the greatest flexibility and efficiency for the consumer.
Interesting, not sure if things have changed since this article.

For more info see Dolby Audio Coding for Future Entertainment Formats and Dolby TrueHD FAQ's

cheers:)

PS. Also remember that Dolby TrueHD is basically MLP aka DVD-A at its core, in otherwords its lossless PCM, so decoding it to PCM is basically unzipping it.
 
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L

LEVESQUE

Junior Audioholic
I'm passing 1080p60 over HDMI 1.1 from my Anthem D2 to my Sony Ruby VPL-VW100 every day, with both my Toshiba HD-A1 (HD-DVD) and Samsung BD-P1000 (Blu-ray). :D

No problem with 1080i/p over HDMI 1.1. 1080p is not in the "specs" of HDMI 1.1, but it's "optionnal", so some manufacturers can implement it if they want, just like Anthem did in the D2/AVM50 serie.

You can easily pass 8 channels of 96KHz/24bit audio (PCM) and 1080p60 over HDMI 1.1. If the player can read the disc, decode it, and send it as PCM, the receiving end doesn't care what it started out as.
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
and also why on the DOLBY DIGITAL sight does it say the best way to hook up your equipment to take full advantage of the new codecs is through HDMI 1.1
First off HDMI 1.3 is not available in hardware form.

please show me proof to back up your claims that you NEED HDMI 1.3for the new audio codecs.
Now you are trying to change things, you need proof that HDMI 1.2 and less can not pass a 1080p video signal and a 5.1+ lossless audio signal at the same time?

and since we know HDMI 1.1 already outputs 1080p along with the new codecs, what is your point?
Once again you are wrong as you may not know there is not a high def player that can output a 1080p video signal or a 5.1+ lossless audio signal so WHAT is your point?
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
You can easily pass 8 channels of 96KHz/24bit audio (PCM) and 1080p60 over HDMI 1.1. If the player can read the disc, decode it, and send it as PCM, the receiving end doesn't care what it started out as.
The whole point of hi def DVD players was 1080p and 5.1+ lossless audio which you are not getting so why would you say anything?
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
HDMI 1.3 adds a number of enhancements to the current specification. For starters, it increases the interface's data transfer rate from 4.95Gbps to 10.2Gbps by upping the signal clock speed from 165MHz to 340MHz.


The greater bandwidth is needed to support the higher colour depths HDMI 1.3 adds to the 24-bit colour support of the previous version. HDMI will now support 30-, 36- and 48-bit colour in both RGB and luminance-chrominance (YCbCr) colour spaces, allowing suitably capable screens to show more colours. HDMI 1.3 also supports the next-generation xvYCC colour space.
Lets start off with some basic information.

http://www.hdmi.org/resourcecenter/index.asp
 
L

LEVESQUE

Junior Audioholic
Tawnos said:
The whole point of hi def DVD players was 1080p and 5.1+ lossless audio which you are not getting so why would you say anything?
I'm passing 1080p60 and DD+ decoded to PCM over HDMI 1.1 right now.

Kris Deering review of the Anthem D2 with HDMI 1.1. It's the guy behind the Secrets DVD shoot-out:

"With HD DVD and Blu-Ray there are new sound formats to deal with. These include Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD, and DTS-HD. As it stands right now these formats need to be decoded to high resolution PCM inside the player to take full advantage of them in your system. This means the decoded PCM stream can be transported via either HDMI or analog multi-channel outputs like we’ve had to do with DVD Audio and SACD in the past. Only receivers or A/V processors with HDMI v1.1 compliant inputs will be able to accept these signals via HDMI. The D2 does this and you can apply any post processing format you want to it including ones like THX Ultra 2 and PLIIx. Recently Anthem updated the D2 firmware to allow for setup of the default for up to 6 discrete channels of PCM so you can apply different processing on top of it. This allows me to take decoded Dolby Digital + 5.1 soundtracks that have been decoded to high resolution PCM and add stuff like THX Ultra 2 or Dolby Pro-Logic IIx post processing to it.

Eventually these formats will have support for decoding inside receivers and SSPs. This is rumored to happen with the introduction of the HDMI v1.3 spec (or possibly even a v2.0). I haven’t spoken directly with Anthem on what their plan is for this but they have mentioned in the past that they will support any sound format that comes down the pipe and since the D2 has a completely upgradeable DSP board, I imagine they will do this when it becomes available and necessary. The only roadblock I see for this is the HDMI receiver chips in the D2. I don’t think they can just be upgraded with firmware to the 1.3 spec later down the line so I am not sure if another hardware update would be necessary. I really don’t see this as much of an issue though since all of the formats can be decoded within their respective players. The only upside of HDMI 1.3 in my view would be support of SACD via HDMI. SACD uses a 1-bit encoding format called Direct Stream Digital (DSD). The HDMI 1.2 spec addressed the need for the transmission of this 1-bit data stream and all further HDMI specs will incorporate the previous features. There is a workaround for this though. DSD bitstreams are often converted to PCM in most Universal DVD players for things like bass management and time alignment. That PCM data could be passed over HDMI just like any other PCM material making digital delivery of SACD possible. Right now I know of only one player that does this, the Oppo 970HD. "
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
http://www.dolby.com/professional/pro_audio_engineering/technologies.html

Dolby TrueHD is supported by HDMI™, the new single-cable digital connection for high-definition audio and video that eliminates the confusion of multiple connectors. Dolby TrueHD will be transportable over version 1.3 of HDMI and is compatible with version 1.1 as an output PCM signal for A/V receivers.
I was not able to find anything more on the DD website but we know what they mean.
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
I'm passing 1080p60 and DD+ decoded to PCM over HDMI 1.1 right now.
Your hi def DVD player can NOT output a 1080p signal! You are only using a 2CH version of dolby HD which I think is pointless.
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
I don’t think they can just be upgraded with firmware to the 1.3 spec later down the line so I am not sure if another hardware update would be necessary.
You know why there is a PHYSICAL change in the connector!
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
The only upside of HDMI 1.3 in my view would be support of SACD via HDMI.
Can you not read? What have I been saying all along? We need HDMI 1.3 to send a 1080p signal plus a full lossless surround (5.1+) audio signal over the same cable! End of story this is it. Plus I have not even touched the deep color aspect.
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
Deep color: HDMI 1.3 supports 30-bit, 36-bit and 48-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification.
There is even a huge increase in the video side so how can you not want HDMI 1.3?
 
T

Tawnos

Banned
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/08/hdmi_part_5_-_a.php

According to Silicon Image, the HDMI transport is able to handle 24Mbps of audio speed, suitable for any of the proposed audio formats from either disc format, including DTS HD Master Audio. However, the version 1.3 HDMI specification would enable the players to output those audio formats over HDMI for them to be decoded externally, by a future A/V receiver capable to do so, for example, if one prefers so; the protocols and specifications were finalized and available in June 2006. Dolby is working closely with Silicon Image to ensure transmission of Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD signals on HDMI v. 1.3.
Is it the same information over and over again.
 
M

MAX661

Audioholic
Ok Tawnos, My Denon 5805 with the MK2 upgrade doesn't pass 1080p over HDMI 1.1 and neither does levesque's D2 {nice processor by the way} Denon and anthem are wrong and dont know there own products. Dolby Digital is also wrong about there own formats and how they can be receivedand transmitted.

You never add any substance to your claims, no proof and you buy into hype. I did say there was benefits to HDMI 1.3, but they are not relative to the new audio codecs or 1080p pass through. THOSE ARE AVAILABLE NOW!!!

Levesque doesn't know what he's talking about, he only has some of the nicest equipment available, Talks with knowledgeable people on these forums daily and watches HD-DVD's and BluRay daily using the exact methods we describe.

You failed to post what equipment you are using, where you get your wrong information and what your background is in the Home Theater field. Until you do these things or atleast say something more than "You are so wrong buddy" for a reply to someone else's post you may aswell not bother, you are spreading misinformation and doing noone a favor.
 
L

LEVESQUE

Junior Audioholic
Tawnos said:
Your hi def DVD player can NOT output a 1080p signal! You are only using a 2CH version of dolby HD which I think is pointless.
I know it's useless, but here it goes again... Sigh...

My "hi-def players" are the Toshiba HD-A1 (HD-DVD) and The Samsung BD-P1000 (Blu-ray).

The HD-A1 is outputting 1080i to my Anthem D2 over HDMI 1.1 and the internal Gennum VXP scaler is outputting 1080p60 after performing the i/p conversion over HDMI 1.1 to my Sony Ruby (so it's 1080p OUT over HDMI 1.1 to my Ruby...). The Samsung is outputting 1080p to my D2 and then out to my Sony ruby.

Here's the proof with my Toshiba HD-A1 player: :D

Take a good look. :D Input: video source HDMI YCbCr 4:2:2, 1920X1080i/59.94Hz. Output: 1920X1080p/60Hz. So 1080i in and 1080p out over HDMI 1.1!

 
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T

Tawnos

Banned
I know it's useless, but here it goes again... Sigh...
I am right and you are wrong, what did I just say? "Your hi def DVD player can NOT output a 1080p signal!" which your toshiba can not, end of story.
 

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