Shopping for a subwoofer

[ParadigmDawg]

OK guys, stay with me a little longer, please, as I pick through the SVS offerings

Could anyone compare the PB-13 Ultra with the new SB13 Plus for me? Room is 16'x24' with an avg. ceiling of 10' and lots of height changes. On one long end, there are two 4' wide passageways to the rest of the house. TV is in the 8' section between the passageways.

Budget and space will allow for 2 SB-13's, but I think two PB-13 would be a bit much, space-wise. Doable, though, with a little spousal negotiating, if there's a strong reason to do it.

Should I also be looking at cylinder subs? Or maybe more smaller ones? My gear is listed in the original post, and again, it's used used 70% for music with just the two fronts. I don't think I'd play loud, but soundstaging and accuracy would be important. Thanks in advance.

Just call SVS and tell them your gaols and describe your room. They will tell you what you need and won't try to upsell you.

 

[bandphan]

Id definitely go with a Seaton or two if you have the funds. Very clean high output and plays very low for a sealed sub. My next choice would be a Danley Sound Labs unit. Bigger but possibly the best you can get for the money.

 

[shadyJ]

OK guys, stay with me a little longer, please, as I pick through the SVS offerings

Could anyone compare the PB-13 Ultra with the new SB13 Plus for me? Room is 16'x24' with an avg. ceiling of 10' and lots of height changes. On one long end, there are two 4' wide passageways to the rest of the house. TV is in the 8' section between the passageways.

Budget and space will allow for 2 SB-13's, but I think two PB-13 would be a bit much, space-wise. Doable, though, with a little spousal negotiating, if there's a strong reason to do it.

Should I also be looking at cylinder subs? Or maybe more smaller ones? My gear is listed in the original post, and again, it's used used 70% for music with just the two fronts. I don't think I'd play loud, but soundstaging and accuracy would be important. Thanks in advance.

In a space like that, I would go with two Hsu ULS-15s or two Rythmik F15HPs. Both are high quality, high SPL subs, but not huge. I would only get the SB if you have a need for onboard EQing, but most receivers have enough bass management to make that a redundant feature nowadays. And to be honest, if that was a feature I desired, I might grab a couple Velodyne DD-15 subwoofers off Audiogon instead. It comes with a mic and a OSD that makes flattening out in-room FR a piece of cake, and it doesn't cost that much more.

 

[josko]

SVS is recommending two PB12/PC12 units; their response has been great. I already have a BFD and am familiar with REW to equalize rooms.

 

[KEW]

I'd like to buy a high-end subwoofer but am stuck between buying on line and possibly getting stuck with something I don't like, and paying what seems like an extra $1k to a 'brick&mortar' store that will let me audition at least some of the units I'm looking at.
Here's where I'm at:
Fronts: B&W 803d powered by Levinson 334
Rears: B&W 805s powered by Adcom 7000
Center: B&W HTM2d powered by Adcom 7000
Sub: cheapo Polk

It's used 70% for music (just the fronts) and 30% for video content as a 5.1 system. Room is 16' x 24' with a complex high ceiling. I went to considerable trouble with acoustic treatments and eq. software to remove any deep spectral nulls.
I understand the 'logical' sub for this setup is the B&W 825 or 855, but I've been also looking at JL 112/113, Velodyne DD 15/18, and now SVS SB13. I'm worried about buying one 'sight unseen'. I believe I'd want a sealed unit since I'd like reproduction accuracy more than special effects and 'boominess'.
There are two local high-end dealers, one of whom stocks Velodyne and B&W, and the other JL Audio and B&W. I'd love to go audition, but their prices are about $1k more than what I see online, and I don't want to 'jerk them around' auditioning and then go buy online.

How should I approach this?

I don't know how patient you are, but you should at least consider waiting for this review:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67724

That thread has gotten a bit unwieldy. For a quick and dirty, figure it will be complete around the end of the year and the current updated tally of subs is here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=750974&postcount=200
And Salk agreed to send their Salk Song Sub.

It sounds like your budget is a reasonable fit for the subs being tested and I believe, with the comprehensive testing planned, and commentary by an experienced speaker designer, there will likely be something worth learning before dropping serious coin on a sub or two.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

SVS is recommending two PB12/PC12 units; their response has been great. I already have a BFD and am familiar with REW to equalize rooms.

You could wait around and see what the other suggestions bring you or get the SVS now and never look back....up to you...

 

[josko]

Sometimes I'm not too sure what to make of reviews. I ran across this one from stereophile: http://stereophile.com/subwoofers/808svs

and he (Larry Greenhill) certainly puts the PB-13 a notch below some other subs I'd mentioned:
"Further listening revealed subtle differences among the PB13-Ultra and the more expensive REL Studio III, Velodyne DD-18, and JL Audio Fathom f113. A pair of Fathom f113s merged more smoothly with the Quads, producing a much deeper, more three-dimensional illusion of the soundstage than did the PB13-Ultra. The expensive REL Studio III had better pitch definition. The Velodyne DD-18—with its much larger (18") servo-controlled cone, high-pass filter, and 1400W internal amplifier—delivered greater punch, slam, and room lock. I also noticed that the PB13-Ultra added a subtle harshness and flattening of the soundstage to recordings of massed voices. This might be a function of the SVS's built-in 6dB/octave high-pass filter producing too little attenuation for the Quads' bass response. On the other hand, this same high-pass filter proved crucial for synthesizer recordings, such as the opening of "The Swordfight" from Casper: without the filter, the bass was bloated; with the filter switched on, it was tight and tuneful."

and then further on:

"Still, the PB13-Ultra couldn't quite match the musicality of those cost-no-object subs. Some recordings revealed small amounts of bass bloat, this perhaps related to the gradual high-pass filter slopes that failed to completely suppress the Quad ESLs' low-frequency output. "

It does make one wonder if this is just the reviewer having a bad day, a set of design decisions/compromises, or something else entirely. But it does make it a bit harder to 'pull the trigger' sight unseen.

 

[GranteedEV]

While I'm sure all those subs have their own distinct character, I'd still wager that it's a case of "SVS probably didn't pay him as much as those other companies*cough*cough*"

So you haven't considered a pair or quad of rythmik F25s?

 

[AJinFLA]

I'd still wager that it's a case of "SVS probably didn't pay him as much as those other companies*cough*cough*"

.
Or maybe his imagination drifted a bit during this daydream.
Btw, WTF is "room lock"??

 

[its phillip]

Sometimes I'm not too sure what to make of reviews. I ran across this one from stereophile: http://stereophile.com/subwoofers/808svs

and he (Larry Greenhill) certainly puts the PB-13 a notch below some other subs I'd mentioned:
"Further listening revealed subtle differences among the PB13-Ultra and the more expensive REL Studio III, Velodyne DD-18, and JL Audio Fathom f113. A pair of Fathom f113s merged more smoothly with the Quads, producing a much deeper, more three-dimensional illusion of the soundstage than did the PB13-Ultra. The expensive REL Studio III had better pitch definition. The Velodyne DD-18—with its much larger (18") servo-controlled cone, high-pass filter, and 1400W internal amplifier—delivered greater punch, slam, and room lock. I also noticed that the PB13-Ultra added a subtle harshness and flattening of the soundstage to recordings of massed voices. This might be a function of the SVS's built-in 6dB/octave high-pass filter producing too little attenuation for the Quads' bass response. On the other hand, this same high-pass filter proved crucial for synthesizer recordings, such as the opening of "The Swordfight" from Casper: without the filter, the bass was bloated; with the filter switched on, it was tight and tuneful."

and then further on:

"Still, the PB13-Ultra couldn't quite match the musicality of those cost-no-object subs. Some recordings revealed small amounts of bass bloat, this perhaps related to the gradual high-pass filter slopes that failed to completely suppress the Quad ESLs' low-frequency output. "

It does make one wonder if this is just the reviewer having a bad day, a set of design decisions/compromises, or something else entirely. But it does make it a bit harder to 'pull the trigger' sight unseen.

according to that guy:
$7000 worth of jl audio subs "merged more smoothly"
$9000 sub had better "pitch definition"
$5000 sub had "greater punch, slam, and room lock"

I wouldn't pay 250-500% more to get a sub or two that some magazine dude spoke fancy words about, but that's just me. I'd recommend finding some people in your area who have various ID subs and see if they'd let you demo them, along with demoing other subs at dealers.

 

[AJinFLA]

Isn't a "room lock" about $20 at Home Depot?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

according to that guy:
$7000 worth of jl audio subs "merged more smoothly"
$9000 sub had better "pitch definition"
$5000 sub had "greater punch, slam, and room lock"

I wouldn't pay 250-500% more to get a sub or two that some magazine dude spoke fancy words about, but that's just me. I'd recommend finding some people in your area who have various ID subs and see if they'd let you demo them, along with demoing other subs at dealers.

I bet if the F113 sounded better in my room than the SVS, I wouldn't have replaced it with the SVS...

Hey, maybe josko lives in FTW like us and he can just come and listen or we can drag one to his house.

Where do you live josko?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Isn't a "room lock" about $20 at Home Depot?

Depends on the color, we went with the brushed antique and it was $23...

 

[josko]

I'm on Cape Cod, MA.

FWIW, I just want this to end without feeling like an idiot 6 months down the line.

I't's also kind of amazing, to me anyway, to what extent we've replaced B&M stores with web sites like this one.

 

[GranteedEV]

Read some of the customers' thoughts on iD subs on their respective forums:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=5&page=1
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=82.0

 

[josko]

We actually made cardboard mock-ups of the PB12 and PB13 and set them up in the room. All of a sudden, I got spousal approval to get the bigger PB-13's 'if it's any better'.
So what kind of a difference can I expect between the 12 and 13? SVS sounds like it's mostly a case of a few more dB for the PB-13, but I was wondering if anyone could point me to a comparison of the two.
We're looking to get two subs.