Seymour AV Ice Block 5001 500watt Monoblock Amplifier Review

C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
Excellent. If it can be shown that most of these manufacturers are basically overcharging because of their name, maybe Outlaw, & Emotiva can start making ice amps and sell them at reasonable prices.

Those that want to pay for the name are more then welcome to do so. I'm not one of them.

Paul;

Wait till you see the article I am posting on Monday "Attack of the Clone Amplifiers". IT addresses your post exactly. There is very little that can be done to the ICE amp to improve upon it short of redoing the entire power supply which to date nobody has done b/c its so much easier to just slap a fancy box around it and sell a high end name. Stay tuned...
 
V

VladP

Audioholic Intern
Excellent. If it can be shown that most of these manufacturers are basically overcharging because of their name, maybe Outlaw, & Emotiva can start making ice amps and sell them at reasonable prices.

Those that want to pay for the name are more then welcome to do so. I'm not one of them.
I think companies like D-sonic, Wyred 4 sound and Seymour already sell them at low enough prices so that their amps are as good or a better bargain then Emotiva, Outlaw and Axiom.
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
I look forward to the part where it says, "the so-called 500-watts modules actually produces 50 watts continuous RMS power 20Hz-20kHz with about a 10dB Headroom.":D

I don't know guys. If an amp (any amp) produces 50-watts continuous RMS power, then it should be called a 50-Watt amp, not 500-watts!
In addition B&O has the habit of naming their amps using the 4 ohm power rating, making them seem even more powerful. Meanwhile, the rest of the industry rates their amps into 8 ohms.

So a 500ASP is really 500W (non continuous) into 4 Ohms, 250W into 8 Ohms. I guess they know power sells. Luckily some of the amp manufacturers using their modules rate their amps according to industry norms.

Also if you look at the THD+N curves, the maximum is not always reached at the rated full power. Most amps have far more predictable THD+N curves, rising towards max at their full rated power. AT 6.67 KHz, the 500ASP has more harmonic distortion starting at about 7 Watts than it has at full rated power!
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Excellent. If it can be shown that most of these manufacturers are basically overcharging because of their name, maybe Outlaw, & Emotiva can start making ice amps and sell them at reasonable prices.

Those that want to pay for the name are more then welcome to do so. I'm not one of them.
Fwiw ICE is a trademark not an design.
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
Excellent. If it can be shown that most of these manufacturers are basically overcharging because of their name, maybe Outlaw, & Emotiva can start making ice amps and sell them at reasonable prices.

Those that want to pay for the name are more then welcome to do so. I'm not one of them.
It depends on the manufacturer and the configuration. The kit (amp, power supply, soft start, tranformer etc) for a single channel 400W (into 4 ohms) amp can be had from Hypex or NewClassD for half or less of the Seymour list price. However you would have to build it etc... so Seymour is still within reason.

However Bel Canto sells their REF500s for $5K per pair, hard to justify.

Something I was alluding to in one of my earlier posts is that if B&O is positioning the ICE modules for a wide set of market apps, (think receivers, guitar amps, self-powered speakers), then the cost of the module can't be very high. You have to wonder what Bel Canto can do to the B&O module to warrant such a price?
 
V

VladP

Audioholic Intern
In addition B&O has the habit of naming their amps using the 4 ohm power rating, making them seem even more powerful. Meanwhile, the rest of the industry rates their amps into 8 ohms.

So a 500ASP is really 500W (non continuous) into 4 Ohms, 250W into 8 Ohms. I guess they know power sells. Luckily some of the amp manufacturers using their modules rate their amps according to industry norms.

Also if you look at the THD+N curves, the maximum is not always reached at the rated full power. Most amps have far more predictable THD+N curves, rising towards max at their full rated power. AT 6.67 KHz, the 500ASP has more harmonic distortion starting at about 7 Watts than it has at full rated power!
While I agree that the THD curves are weird, the curve is below 0.2% all the way until it gets at the max power. That is as good or better than many other amps. I highly doubt that any variations below 0.2% THD can be audible.
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
While I agree that the THD curves are weird, the curve is below 0.2% all the way until it gets at the max power. That is as good or better than many other amps. I highly doubt that any variations below 0.2% THD can be audible.
Vlad, you and I really seem to have two different perspectives when looking at the same info.

I will agree that 0.2% distortion is not audible as distortion, it will come through as less clarity to the listener. I would love to see a couple of examples where amp manufacturers have speced their amps at near 0.2%.

This has to be looked at in the context of how the specs on an ICE (or any class D amp) compared to more traditional linear designs. Many good linear designs are near flat on their THD curves vs freq. If you pick 1Khz as the test point, it is fairly representative of the whole frequency range. Now look at the 500ASP, it's speced at 0.006% THD at 1Khz at 1W. This spec neither reflects typical behavior across the frequency or power spectrum. Most linear designs will rate their amps at full power with 0.1% distortion but until reaching clipping, typical distortion levels are far below that number.

I am not saying that all class D amps are bad, but they should be compared to linear design in a fair and like manner. This is especially true if the manufacturer is taking a module of average performance is marketing it a a high end product.

As an example, look up the Hypex modules I mentioned earlier. Then look up Channel Islands Audio and Kharma. They both build monoblocks based on the same underlying technology. CIA sells its monoblocks for $2,300 per pair, Kharma for $6,800 per pair. Other than the very nice enclosure, what has Kharma done to deserve such a high price?
 
V

VladP

Audioholic Intern
Vlad, you and I really seem to have two different perspectives when looking at the same info.

I will agree that 0.2% distortion is not audible as distortion, it will come through as less clarity to the listener. I would love to see a couple of examples where amp manufacturers have speced their amps at near 0.2%.

This has to be looked at in the context of how the specs on an ICE (or any class D amp) compared to more traditional linear designs. Many good linear designs are near flat on their THD curves vs freq. If you pick 1Khz as the test point, it is fairly representative of the whole frequency range. Now look at the 500ASP, it's speced at 0.006% THD at 1Khz at 1W. This spec neither reflects typical behavior across the frequency or power spectrum. Most linear designs will rate their amps at full power with 0.1% distortion but until reaching clipping, typical distortion levels are far below that number.

I am not saying that all class D amps are bad, but they should be compared to linear design in a fair and like manner. This is especially true if the manufacturer is taking a module of average performance is marketing it a a high end product.

As an example, look up the Hypex modules I mentioned earlier. Then look up Channel Islands Audio and Kharma. They both build monoblocks based on the same underlying technology. CIA sells its monoblocks for $2,300 per pair, Kharma for $6,800 per pair. Other than the very nice enclosure, what has Kharma done to deserve such a high price?
I actually do think that these modules offer a high end performance and way above average (and I am not alone in that opinion). In many linear amps THD may be more stable but it is also often higher than the average THD in an ICE module. In ICE modules THD actually dips quite low at certain levels. 0.2% THD in an ICE module is shown only for 6.67kHz at 4 om and it is way lower at two other frequencies.

I don't know why these other manufacturers charge more for the same modules. Some of them sell via dealers and this would raise the price over internet only vendors. Some claim they do modifications to them. Whether or not these modifications result in audible differences remains to be seen. Gene said there is little that can be done to them, but that little may be enough to change sonic characteristics? I don't know and I don't necessarily care too much. I know that I have been in this hobby for many years and now I have an ICE amp and it does sound to ME like many high end amps I have heard before. There is also nothing in the specs reported to suggest that it should not perform well. I would also think that the goal of any amp is to reproduce sound accurately and so the closer various amps get to this goal the more similar will they sound.

I would still think that any variation below 0.2% THD cannot be heard in any way or form because of human hearing limitations.
 
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Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Wait till you see the article I am posting on Monday "Attack of the Clone Amplifiers". IT addresses your post exactly. There is very little that can be done to the ICE amp to improve upon it short of redoing the entire power supply which to date nobody has done b/c its so much easier to just slap a fancy box around it and sell a high end name. Stay tuned...

Hey Gene, I am looking forward to this...... did we miss it...?
 
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engtaz

engtaz

Full Audioholic
Nice review. Through me off with the pro and con compaired to the conclusion.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
what do these 1000ASP modules put out at 2 ohm loads?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
what do these 1000ASP modules put out at 2 ohm loads?
Last time I checked, it was around 1500 watts into 2 ohms.

However, my understanding is that all these ratings are not Continuous RMS 20Hz-20kHz.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
what do these 1000ASP modules put out at 2 ohm loads?
Very similar to the 4 ohm rating at 1kHz and likely less at higher frequencies. Most speakers impedance magnitudes are above 2 ohms so it shouldn't be much of an issue unless you trying to drive a highly reactive ESL type speaker which B&O cautions against.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
We you able to measure the power output w/ graphs/charts?

You know the usual RMS Continuous power rating @ 0.1% THD?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
We you able to measure the power output w/ graphs/charts?

You know the usual RMS Continuous power rating @ 0.1% THD?
no, but I know how to interpret a data sheet. Also there is no such thing as RMS power ;)
 
B

bobs

Enthusiast
Please, measure these modules already!
I'd like to see real world measurements so I can finally decide ICEPower yes or no.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
Just read through the review here again today....

and it's strange to me, if this amp is so darn good
Why does it only get 4 start in performance figure?
 
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