SC-LX904 benchmark testing?

[lovinthehd]

By "rear" I was referring to the rear channels in a 4.0 configuration. The music should be played through the front left and right, as well as the right and left surrounds. Alas, there is nothing played but the information from the front left and right.

The older receivers worked as expected, with FL-FR-SL-SR playing the quad mixes.

What is the media and player involved? I have many discs with a quad mix, none misbehave nor do any of my avrs in that regard.....sounds more like you're playing a 2ch version or something in settings is getting in the way in the player or avr.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

What is your current speaker configuration? What are the different devices used for music playback?

Currently my system is set up in a 7.2.4 configuration. All ground plane speakers are Energy Connoisseur series (4xC8, 2xC4 with matching AC-300 centre). SVS PB2000 pro subs and Yamaha NS-AW294 for ATMOS ceiling speakers. Running my fronts with a Crown XLS-1502 in pre-amp mode.

I use a Sony X800 for physical media, Apple TV 4k and Shield TV for streaming. All sources exhibit the same issues when playing the aforementioned codecs. Also have tested with my PS4 Pro and XBOX SX. A real shame considering how good the 904 sounds - but I should be able to play this stuff as intended.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

What is the media and player involved? I have many discs with a quad mix, none misbehave nor do any of my avrs in that regard.....sounds more like you're playing a 2ch version or something in settings is getting in the way in the player or avr.

Nope. AVR display shows PCM 4.0 input and PCM 4.2 output. Just won't play two of the four channels. In this particular case, it is the DSOTM quad mix from the Immersion Box Set.

I have a ton of quad SACD's that play just fine - but all of them are encoded DSD 5.1 with an empty centre channel.

DD and DTS 4.0 play as 6.2 due to the automatic upmix done by this AVR.

Edit: I took some pictures, but they are too big to upload! Lmao - I'll try to figure out how to shrink them down. I have been communicating with Pioneer's support and apparently this has been escalated to the engineers, for whatever that is worth.

Edit 2: Interesting development - when I play the DTOSM quad mix through the XBOX SX I get a message that says the receiver cannot decode this and advises that I use the XBOX to do so. It will then play quad - in PCM 7.1 format with 3 empty channels. To get this to work I had to set the XBOX SX to PCM uncompressed audio instead of ATMOS, which brings its own issues. This is a lot of work to get a quad album to play (PCM 4.0).

Of course - this also solves the problem of upmixed DD and DTS signals. Just convert everything to PCM! /s

TLDR - This AVR apparently cannot decode PCM 4.0 - even though it recognizes the format. What a shame.

 

[lovinthehd]

Nope. AVR display shows PCM 4.0 input and PCM 4.2 output. Just won't play two of the four channels. In this particular case, it is the DSOTM quad mix from the Immersion Box Set.

I have a ton of quad SACD's that play just fine - but all of them are encoded DSD 5.1 with an empty centre channel.

DD and DTS 4.0 play as 6.2 due to the automatic upmix done by this AVR.

Edit: I took some pictures, but they are too big to upload! Lmao - I'll try to figure out how to shrink them down. I have been communicating with Pioneer's support and apparently this has been escalated to the engineers, for whatever that is worth.

Edit 2: Interesting development - when I play the DTOSM quad mix through the XBOX SX I get a message that says the receiver cannot decode this and advises that I use the XBOX to do so. It will then play quad - in PCM 7.1 format with 3 empty channels. To get this to work I had to set the XBOX SX to PCM uncompressed audio instead of ATMOS, which brings its own issues. This is a lot of work to get a quad album to play (PCM 4.0).

Of course - this also solves the problem of upmixed DD and DTS signals. Just convert everything to PCM! /s

TLDR - This AVR apparently cannot decode PCM 4.0 - even though it recognizes the format. What a shame.

If using a pc, right click on the picture file and go to edit/Paint, resize the photos....I usually use 30-35%

Is the PF disc bluray? What is the specific format(s) available for playback per the box set?

The upmix is because you're using the Dolby/DTS sound modes, should be able to bypass the extra speakers by using direct mode. Can't say I've seen 4.0 PCM particularly, at least not on any of my players/avrs' displays but I don't have that set. What optical disc player is it? Is it set to bitstream or ?

FWIW we can see all the posts/replies, you don't need to duplicate it (or you can quote each post you're referring to in a single post).

ps nm on the player, see you have the X800.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Sorry, I didn't realize about the quotes.

So what I have here are some photos regarding the input/output display. There does not seem to be a way to stop the upmixing short of disabling the rear surrounds. The manual mentions the following on page 212:

• When surround back speakers are included in the speaker layout, and software that is recorded with the 5.1-channel Dolby audio format is played, the surround channel audio may be output from the surround back speakers.

What it should say is "All DD or DTS signals in any format will be upmixed whether you want it done or not".

As the pictures show neither DIRECT, nor PURE DIRECT have any effect on the speaker output, though PURE DIRECT does turn off MCACC. Not really sure what DIRECT does, and the manual is pretty vague in this regard. I suspect it turns off a few things on top of the tone controls.

As shown, multichannel PCM and DSD are not upmixed, only DD and DTS signals, so I can listen to MLP files as well as my SACD's with no trouble (excepting PCM 4.0). The King Crimson disk shows both formats included and the differing output from each. The 4.0 PCM screens are while playing the DSOTM disc. All of the disks in these shots are through the X800.

The oddest thing about the entire ordeal is that earlier AVR's from the same outfit had no trouble with either of these issues. We shall see if Pioneer responds to me. I have provided all this same information to the engineering department (according to the support desk anyways). I find it exceedingly strange that the AVR recognizes PCM 4.0 and shows it as output but will not play it, and that when the same disc is run through the XBOX SX the player recognizes that the AVR won't decode it but will transcode it to 7.1 and I can hear it properly that way.

Perhaps the PCM 4.0 codec is sufficiently rare that no one notices, but it really doesn't make sense that one cannot turn off the rear speakers when they are connected. Older Pio AVR's had the SB CH button on the remote that would stop the upmix (fwiw I tried the old remote, that button does not work on the new AVR).

Thanks for your interest in this, but I fear that this is simply a quirk of this particular receiver. I don't have much faith in any sort of response from Pionkyo.

Again, thanks for your help and interest. I have to take some time to set up my new (to me) Kenwood KR-v127r that just showed up! Vintage 1988!

 

[Trebdp83]

Nope. AVR display shows PCM 4.0 input and PCM 4.2 output. Just won't play two of the four channels. In this particular case, it is the DSOTM quad mix from the Immersion Box Set.

I have a ton of quad SACD's that play just fine - but all of them are encoded DSD 5.1 with an empty centre channel.

DD and DTS 4.0 play as 6.2 due to the automatic upmix done by this AVR.

Edit: I took some pictures, but they are too big to upload! Lmao - I'll try to figure out how to shrink them down. I have been communicating with Pioneer's support and apparently this has been escalated to the engineers, for whatever that is worth.

Edit 2: Interesting development - when I play the DTOSM quad mix through the XBOX SX I get a message that says the receiver cannot decode this and advises that I use the XBOX to do so. It will then play quad - in PCM 7.1 format with 3 empty channels. To get this to work I had to set the XBOX SX to PCM uncompressed audio instead of ATMOS, which brings its own issues. This is a lot of work to get a quad album to play (PCM 4.0).

Of course - this also solves the problem of upmixed DD and DTS signals. Just convert everything to PCM! /s

TLDR - This AVR apparently cannot decode PCM 4.0 - even though it recognizes the format. What a shame.

Thought I read about DSOTM quad mix disc issues on other AVRs. The issue with DD 5.1/EX signals is that sometimes the Surround information will be output from the Surround Back speakers and NOT from the Surround Speakers when using 7.1.X configuration on certain Onkyo/Pioneer models. So, 7.2 may appear for output as the Surround Back speakers may be outputting Surround Channel info.

If the quad mix works on the XBOX Series X when it decodes the 4.0 signal, try setting the X800 to PCM instead of Auto(Bitstream) in the Audio Output settings to see if things work differently. DSD, DTHD and DTS HDMA signals will all be output as multichannel PCM, though Dolby Atmos and DTS:X metadata will be lost.

I believe Auto Surround mode is causing the up mix of signals. Try using the Surround button on the remote controller to switch sound modes. Avoid Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X and shoot for matching input and output signals. Again, Dolby Surround channel info may be output from Surround Back speakers in some cases and a 7.2 output may be displayed in those cases instead of 5.2.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW was looking at discogs for the box set and saw this note "Please note: On this European pressing, Disc 5 (Blu-ray) degraded over time and became unplayable. Replacement discs were made available in 2018 --> The Dark Side Of The Moon (Disc 5 - Blu-ray Immersion Box Set). "

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Yes, that happened to my first disk. I sent them an email, and they never responded - six months later I got the replacement in the mail! Haha!

I still have the degraded disk, and it isn’t recognized at all, by any piece I own.

With regard to the source surround mode mentioned by Treb, I have run the gamut of selections, turned on and off every conceivable combination in the system settings and the rear speakers just won’t turn off (unless I de-select them in the configuration utility).

It is truly bizarre.

As an aside, the Kenwood is a kick ass mid 80’s piece of glory currently blasting Falco. So many lights!

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, that happened to my first disk. I sent them an email, and they never responded - six months later I got the replacement in the mail! Haha!

I still have the degraded disk, and it isn’t recognized at all, by any piece I own.

With regard to the source surround mode mentioned by Treb, I have run the gamut of selections, turned on and off every conceivable combination in the system settings and the rear speakers just won’t turn off (unless I de-select them in the configuration utility).

It is truly bizarre.

As an aside, the Kenwood is a kick ass mid 80’s piece of glory currently blasting Falco. So many lights!

On a Denon or Marantz you can setup a quick select button for a particular configuration, anything like that on the Pioneer?

Like Treb I was wondering about Auto Surround vs other settings. Some of my avrs do the automatic 7ch from 5ch in a DTS sound mode but I can defeat it with Direct mode. I'd be frustrated too....had a Pioneer some years back and still have an older Onkyo, no issues like that unless that bluray is just odd? Just what are the playback audio options on the bluray? So bitstream or not in the X800 doesn't make a difference?

 

[Trebdp83]

What makes matters worse concerning Onkyo/Pioneer models and their tendency to output surround info from the surround back speakers are devices than convert signals for output. They are not all made equal and things can get ugly. My Apple TV 4K and Onkyo work well together using a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker configuration with different sound modes. The Amazon Fire TV Cube Gen 3 is a mess.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

The sound modes are definitely a frustration - I cannot understand such a design decision. Things like this make me regret my purchase decision, even though the unit sounds spectacular - I want things the way I want them! Lmao!

As far as the the X800 - the disc is already sending out a PCM signal. The XBOX XS converts that signal to a 7.1 PCM format (as it does with all audio - everything in the console is converted to whatever format is chosen - ATMOS, PCM 5.1/7.1, DTS and so on). The Sony won't convert the PCM 4.0 signal into a 7.1 signal, nor will it transcode PCM to bitstream. It will, for some reason, output the system menu audio as DTS or DD instead of stereo. I feel like there is a guy in a corner office of all these companies who has no idea what he's dealing with and believes that electronic devices are wizard magic, but for some reason has the final say in what is included on a given piece of equipment.

Totally agree about the conversion of signals - I have no idea what the XBOX is doing, or it's quality relative to the original signal. It may be as simple as putting the signal into a new container with no adulteration, which is what I suspect with no real evidence to back that up. I have never used an Amazon device, but I imagine that the same corner office guy works there too!

With regards to the sound selection, my VSX-94 had the SB CH button which would turn off the rear channel upmixing, the Oinker 906 auto surround would play the original signal when pressed. The Denon X4800 I replaced with this SC-LX904 also allowed it. This unit simply does not allow me to turn off the rear channels as long as the speakers are enabled in the configuration. I honestly cannot believe that someone at PiOnkyo thought that this was acceptable in a flagship receiver. To my mind it is tantamount to including a fantastic phono stage - but forcing output to Dolby PL II. I want to hear the original signal with music. It doesn't bother me with film and TV, but it means something when I'm listening to HeadHunters or Blow By Blow, or the stellar mix on Sailing the Seas of Cheese, you know?

Edit: The Kenwood turned out to be a dud too! After about 20 min I could hear a rising distortion in the right channel and then the crackling and popping began. My luck is not great this week.

 

[Trebdp83]

Don't confuse up mixing a signal with reassignment of the output channels. You may have not noticed that when playing the Dolby TrueHD 5.1 signal of your Moondance disc, the receiver does report output of 7.2(0.1 with 2 subs) BUT there is probably no audio coming out of the surround speakers. Recognized as a Dolby signal, the Pioneer rerouted the surround channel signals to the surround back speakers for output. The signal has not been up mixed. If it was being up mixed, the output would be reported as 7.2.4 as the height speakers would come into play. Initially, I thought Auto Surround might be up mixing the signal but no height channels are being reported as in use. I was able to duplicate this behavior using a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 track from a disc. Configured for 7.1, my Onkyo rerouted the surround channel info to the surround back speakers. I changed the Digital Audio Output setting in my UBP-X800M2 from Auto(bitstream) to PCM(player decoded). Because the receiver recognized the signal as Multich PCM 5.1(6CH PCM 48000Hz) rather than a Dolby signal, the output channels did not change and Multich PCM 5.1 came in and was output as Multch 5.1 even with the 7.1 speaker configuration.

I do not have the DSOTM quad mix disc to test. I still suggest changing the Digital Audio Output setting of the X800 to PCM just to see if it does anything at all for that disc. As for the XBOX Series X/S, audio is being decoded and sent out as PCM when uncompressed multichannel PCM 5.1 or 7.1 is selected for output. Because no Dolby signal is detected using PCM for output, surround channel info is not reassigned for output. Using the "Dolby Atmos for Home Theater" setting outputs Atmos/PCM signals that are reported as just Atmos. Some non Atmos tracks can then be up mixed in the XBOX! The up mixed signal can appear as Dolby Atmos or even as Dolby Surround. It's a mess.

While the Apple TV 4K has the conversion of signals to LPCM for output down to a science, the Amazon Fire TV Cube Gen 3 is a hot mess. When "Best Available" is selected for audio output, everything is output as multichannel PCM. However, while the receiver reports Multich PCM 2.0, 5.1 or 7.1 at 48kHz, there is something else going on. HDMI cables don't just carry signals from one device to another in a system. They also allow devices to communicate issues with one another concerning signals and sometimes the Dolby police move in and crack down on some behavior. My TV and receiver do not agree on everything. While the receiver reports one thing concerning signals from the Fire TV Cube, the TV reports another thing. With the "Best Available" output setting, the TV reports the signals as MAT 9CH 192000Hz. The MAT is short for Dolby MAT as devices that convert signals to PCM use Dolby MAT to retain the Atmos metadata for processing by the receiving end. Because this is reported by the TV, the surround channel info is rerouted to surround back speakers if they configured and DTS Neural:X/Virtual :X up mixing is off the table as Dolby forbids it with Atmos signals. I have to select DD+ for output to remove the DTS up mix lockout for non Atmos tracks as the signal is then reported by the TV as EAC-3 rather than MAT. But, the Dolby surround channel reroute still takes place with a 7.1 configuration because it is a Dolby signal. It's a total f#%kin' mess.

I went down to a 5.1 configuration some time ago and haven't been plagued by the 7.1 issues from Onkyo/Pioneer receivers unless I'm experimenting with speaker setups. Just as weird as the Dolby surround channel info in Dolby 5.1 tracks being rerouted to the surround back speakers is the DTS 5.1 surround channel info being duplicated to the surround back speakers in a 7.1 configuration. When the sound mode is set to DTS in my Onkyo using a 7.1 configuration, the surround channel info seems to be duplicated for surround back speakers. I actually did use this kind of setting years ago with a Denon receiver and would duplicate the surround channel info for output from the surround back speakers to fill things in playing 5.1 tracks without actually up mixing the signal. This automatic behavior concerning DTS 5.1 on the Onkyo/Pioneer receivers is not as offensive as the Dolby 5.1 signal reroute from the surround speakers to the surround back speakers. Using a 5.1 configuration with Virtual height speakers for Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, I'm good. But, if I moved on to a 7.1.4 configuration, it would be with a new Denon receiver. Then, I could hook up the Amazon Fire TV Cube Gen 3 and play with 360 Reality Audio tracks from Amazon Music Unlimited.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

No, you are correct - the sound is being re-routed to the rears. It seems to be an egregious design flaw to me. I have been an Onkyo and a Pioneer fan for many years, and while this unit sounds excellent, I am severely irritated with this unit. I wish I had noticed this nonsense long ago, as I don't believe that a bad design counts as a warranty problem. We shall see if I ever get a response from PiOnkyo engineering, as was discussed in my emails with them.

The receiver doesn't do this with PCM or DSD, with the exception of the 4.0 codec missing they work fine. I find this whole expensive lesson truly aggravating. Bah!

Edit: I did not notice this earlier as I tend to allow Dolby Surround to upmix for TV and movies because it works quite well. Unfortunately it has been a very long time since I sat down for a proper multichannel music session - which is why I did not notice this much earlier. I have been listening mostly in stereo (or straight up Atmos). Much to my chagrin.

 

[Trebdp83]

It is frustrating for sure. What deals are struck with manufacturers regarding Dolby signal handling from year to year is anybody's guess. Running 5.1 and using virtual height speakers, I can apply DTS Virtual:X to DD, DD+ and DTHD signals if I do not like what Dolby Surround is doing with a given Dolby signal using my Onkyo. Though, DTS Virtual:X cannot be applied to any signals containing Atmos metadata. If I were to use a 5.1 configuration with a new Denon, I would not be able to apply DTS Virtual:X to ANY Dolby signal. It is what it is but it's a real pisser when one doesn't know what it is until after the purchase of a new device.

 

[oniiz86]

It is frustrating for sure. What deals are struck with manufacturers regarding Dolby signal handling from year to year is anybody's guess. Running 5.1 and using virtual height speakers, I can apply DTS Virtual:X to DD, DD+ and DTHD signals if I do not like what Dolby Surround is doing with a given Dolby signal using my Onkyo. Though, DTS Virtual:X cannot be applied to any signals containing Atmos metadata. If I were to use a 5.1 configuration with a new Denon, I would not be able to apply DTS Virtual:X to ANY Dolby signal. It is what it is but it's a real pisser when one doesn't know what it is until after the purchase of a new device.

Thanks so very much for confirming that DTS Virtual:X has NO restrictions when upmixing DD, DD+, DTHD signals on Pioneer/Onkyo/Integra AVR products, that is actually a really big feat, what specific Onkyo AVR model do you have? As you mentioned D+M have still opted to NOT remove this cross-upmixing restriction that still plagues their DTS Virtual:X implementation, even with their latest X6800H & Cinema 30 AVRs, I brought this to their attention a few years ago after they lifted the Dolby cross-upmixing restriction on their 2019 models that DTS Virtual:X is still prohibited from using Dolby signals & their "reason" why that is still the case is because it would be a lot of engineering resources for little gain for the customer & you can simply convert the Dolby signal to PCM instead of bitstreaming & then you can happily use the DTS Virtual:X virtualizer, such a lazy response from Masimo Consumer's Phil Jones

 

[Trebdp83]

My TX-NR696 did not allow the DTS Virtual:X sound mode to be applied to ANY Dolby signals. I wasn't aware of it at the time as I mostly used an Apple TV 4K for viewing content and it outputs multichannel PCM by default. I used corresponding sound modes for discs in my universal player. I replaced the TX-NR696 with a TX-NR6050 as I wanted to experiment with gaming in 4K @120Hz on the cheap and the TX-NR6050 was a slightly altered TX-NR6100 that could be had for much less money when they were first released. The TX-NR6100 can currently be had on sale for under five hundred dollars and is quite a bargain for the feature set. The TX-NR6050 and the TX-NR6100 can apply DTS Virtual:X to all Dolby signals save Atmos. Again, devices that communicate the audio signal poorly like the Amazon Fire TV Cube Gen 3 will cause certain other issues when trying to use DTS Virtual:X.

Unfortunately, any new Integra/Onkyo/Pioneer receiver that is equipped with IMAX Enhanced DTS does NOT support DTS Virtual:X. The current top of the line Integra DRX-8.4, Onkyo TX-RZ70 and Pioneer VSX-LX805 receivers will output Dolby 5.1 surround channel info from the surround back speakers in a 7.1.X configured system when using the DD sound mode. They will do the same with IMAX Enhanced DTS 5.1 signals and the IMAX DTS sound mode. So, no DTS Virtual:X or proper channel output of ALL signals on these flagships. If they behave like my TX-NR6050, they also duplicate the surround channel info in a DTS 5.1 track and send it to the surround back speakers as well when configured for 7.1.Perhaps they assumed everybody would simply up mix EVERYTHING and nobody would be the wiser. That's some bulls#%t! Oh well, pick your poison. Denon/Marantz at least supports DTS Virtual:X in some way. F#%k you Yamaha.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Honestly, I can't believe that this is a thing. The rerouted information does not even meet the layout standards published by Dolby Laboratories - how this even left the design room floor is beyond me. I currently own 4 receivers from PiOnkyo, because at the price point for the low end they have the best amps and feature sets for the price. I can forgive a lot for 350-550 CAD.

At four grand I have no forgiveness at all. There is no excuse for an AVR at this level to not play codec information properly.

The more I look at it and think about it, the angrier I am.

 

[lovinthehd]

Honestly, I can't believe that this is a thing. The rerouted information does not even meet the layout standards published by Dolby Laboratories - how this even left the design room floor is beyond me. I currently own 4 receivers from PiOnkyo, because at the price point for the low end they have the best amps and feature sets for the price. I can forgive a lot for 350-550 CAD.

At four grand I have no forgiveness at all. There is no excuse for an AVR at this level to not play codec information properly.

The more I look at it and think about it, the angrier I am.

I take it no justification from Voxx?

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

No, not yet. I assume that it will be quite some time, if I hear back at all.

I love the way it sounds with two channel audio, and it’s good with DSD as well, but it’s such a bizarre and random thing to engineer into a product. And then relegate that information to one line of vague print at the ass end of the manual makes it even worse.

”Hey, I know, we’ll totally distort the intended sound stage of standard bitstream signals! I can’t believe no one else thought this first!” What the hell man?

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Was listening to the DSOTM ATMOS Blu-Ray today - it has a message on the disc when you play it that explains there are problems with current 5.1 codex that exist, causing side surrounds to be played as rear surrounds once the bed layer is expanded. Also claims that the only fix is to physically re-route the speaker wires!

Perhaps PiOnkyo is not to blame after all...

I can't post a pic, because I was listening at an audio store while wrestling with whether or not to add another sub to my system. Of course, I now have to add the disc to my collection, so I will post it here when I get it.