Salk Veracity

[AdrianMills]

What internet speakers have you heard and consider a ripoff?

Well, considering my requirement to listen before I buy, none.
But, I was thinking of starting a ID company pushing cheap rubbish** with good marketing blurb at an inflated price because you can bet your life that there are many, many people out there that will be willing and eager to buy and will be more than satisfied if they have no frame of reference as a lot of ID customers don't. And yes, you're thinking "return policies" but most won't as it’s easy to be satisfied when people think of shipping costs and the hassle.

**Cheap Rubbish is a relative term of course - $10 speakers are very good for what they are if they are sold for $10 but can Bose lifestyle speakers be considered in the same class when they cost oh so much more than they are actually worth... And yet people buy them and are happy until they hear what they could have bought for the same money...

BTW, this post in no way implies that these Salk are cheap rubbish – in fact, given the number of informed responses to the contrary, they may very well be worth the money.

 

[silversurfer]

So basicly, an uninformed opinion since you have never heard an ID speaker?

It is fair to not like the way something is marketed, but to imply they are ripoffs without ever hearing them is a dis-service as well, don't you think?

And what about the many that do have a frame of reference, and have compared the ID speakers to traditional brands?

 

[AdrianMills]

So basicly, an uninformed opinion since you have never heard an ID speaker?

Yes, of course it's uninformed.

It is fair to not like the way something is marketed, but to imply they are ripoffs without ever hearing them is a dis-service as well, don't you think?

Are we talking about ID speakers or the Salk? Well, I never said that either of them were rip offs in general now did I? What I did say was that I wouldn't buy them without listening and I found it strange that they didn't publish specs – or, as it turned out, very few specs.
And I in no way think it a "dis-service" to advise caution when buying unheard speakers on the internet based solely on marketing blurb. And I would even go as far as to say that people should anticipate returning them even if others say they are "great" speakers as we all have different tastes.

And what about the many that do have a frame of reference, and have compared the ID speakers to traditional brands?

Then of course that's fine but the caution still holds some weight now doesn't it?

I'm amused that you seem to be spoiling for a fight over this.

 

[silversurfer]

Hmmm. You implied that there are internet direct ripoffs. I asked what you have heard that are ripoffs. You could did not come up with any. Now I am the one spoiling for a fight?

this is what you posted:

To clarify what I'm trying to say, people have to be careful not to fall into an internet marketing trap these days as there are so many rip offs just waiting to happen.

So I will ask again, can you be specific about a internet marketing ripoff that you know of? I think it will be helpful to those that are less informed.

 

[silversurfer]

You should also caution folks that when they listen to the speakers in a store, they may very well sound different in the home....different room and different equipment. So they should be prepared to return the speaker and quite possibly pay a restocking fee.

 

[AdrianMills]

Hmmm. You implied that there are internet direct ripoffs. I asked what you have heard that are ripoffs. You could did not come up with any. Now I am the one spoiling for a fight?

Your contention seems to be that there aren't any. Here's a lesson; where there is an opening to easily make money out of people's gullibility, someone will step in and take advantage of it. To say otherwise is extremely naive, don't you think?
And yes, I've heard people over the years moan and groan over this or that ID company but I'll be honest and tell you that I don't keep a list or even remember the names as I'm not interested.
And yes, I still say it is you that is being pedantic here and spoiling for a fight.

You should also caution folks that when they listen to the speakers in a store, they may very well sound different in the home....different room and different equipment. So they should be prepared to return the speaker and quite possibly pay a restocking fee.

No, then I would caution them to invest in room treatments rather than using different speakers to equalize it as that’s just silly.

And if you mean different amps and CD players when you say "different equipment" then we're all pretty sure that they make so little difference that you need to be a dog to tell the difference aren't we?

 

[silversurfer]

There is gullibility in the traditional market as well, right? For me the most interesting thing is the stance you and others take against the ID companies without ever hearing them. You caution people about gullibility, yet you never test your own thoughts and experience it for yourself. You are not interested, but interested enough to caution people?

Room treatments? So you would advise the customer make the room acoustics the same as the store where he heard the speakers?

If you don't think the electronics a store uses to demo equipment can sound different than what a buyer may use at home, then I would think you are running some inexpensive equipment. More power to you. It is definitely less critical to some for sure.

 

[AdrianMills]

There is gullibility in the traditional market as well, right? For me the most interesting thing is the stance you and others take against the ID companies without ever hearing them. You caution people about gullibility, yet you never test your own thoughts and experience it for yourself. You are not interested, but interested enough to caution people?

I'm sorry but you're arguments are just plain silly. Of course people can be ripped off no matter what, however, the scope for a good con is far greater on the internet where people buy sight and sound unseen.

And I have bought off of the internet - my Panny TH42PV500 and my SVS PB12plus for instance - however, those were bought on the strength of great reviews and I took into account the fact that they are less prone to personal taste issues.

I definitely would not buy speakers from the internet that I hadn't heard though as I wouldn't want to spend the return postage or have the hassle of lugging 40kg+ of speakers to the post office. And it's a high probability that's what would happen as I've heard more speakers that I didn't like than I did.

The ID guys know that people are willing to put up with minor irritations if the alternative is to go through the hassle and expense of returning them, so they will always make a buck even if they sell speakers that sound less good than a similarly priced pair in a shop somewhere – there’s also the fact that without the possibility to do an AB comparison it may not be exactly obvious that what you are buying is comparatively sub standard.

Room treatments? So you would advise the customer make the room acoustics the same as the store where he heard the speakers?

Another silliness. If the showroom was well damped what you will be hearing will be closer to the speakers true sound - you don't need exactly the same treatments. If you like a speaker in the showroom and not at home you can bet your life that it's wiser to invest in the room acoustics first before investigating any more speakers.

If you don't think the electronics a store uses to demo equipment can sound different than what a buyer may use at home, then I would think you are running some inexpensive equipment.

Here's a rough guess for you; the speakers, the room and the quality of the source recording make up 98%+ of the sound you hear - given that, do you really want to be concerned about electronics when you are shopping for speakers?

Do you have some personal investment in an ID service or something? You certainly sound incredibly biased on this.

 

[randyb]

I think AdrianMills makes some good points, but many of the Internet companies that have sold speakers in various areas have customers willing to let others listen. That removes a lot of the risks about buying sight unseen. There are companies that are less than honest out there both internet and B&M. I barely escaped loosing a fair amount of money when the company that built my home theater went bankrupt a few months after finishing my job. No matter whether if it is internet direct or B&M, you have to do your homework and realize that not everything is always as it seems.

Jim Salk's business model is a little different in that he is a "custom" speaker maker. He has a few speakers in inventory but 90% of his business is building the speaker you want among either his model or other models developed by other designers. Obviously, those tend to be less well known designers but many of them have a very loyal following and have had for many years. People have to decide on thier own what is right for them.

I think a better debate is whether a small speaker designer/company can compete and make a better speaker than the larger houses that have their own drivers/engineers/etc. My own feeling is that it might have been true at one time but is no longer true because of sophisticated computer modeling software available at relatively low costs. That is my opinion though and I think there are good arguments on both sides.

 

[silversurfer]

I'm sorry but you're arguments are just plain silly.

How can my arguments be silly when I have experienced what ID speaker companies offer and you haven't?

Another silliness. If the showroom was well damped what you will be hearing will be closer to the speakers true sound - you don't need exactly the same treatments. If you like a speaker in the showroom and not at home you can bet your life that it's wiser to invest in the room acoustics first before investigating any more speakers.

Not the exact same treatments, the same acoustic sound . You make the assumption that the customer can make his room sound like the showroom. Isn't that what you are implying? As well as making the assumption that the showroom environment was a good one....and you know that is not always the case.

Do you have some personal investment in an ID service or something? You certainly sound incredibly biased on this.

Not at all. If you have noticed, I have nothing against either. I am pointing out that you have a bias without even having the experience. Are you not biased?

 

[AdrianMills]

How can my arguments be silly when I have experienced what ID speaker companies offer and you haven't?

I assume you haven't sampled speakers from every ID company? Then your experiences cover only a sample and a very tiny sample at that, so please, let's have a reality check here, or are you guaranteeing the quality of every ID speaker and the honesty of every ID company based on your very limited experience?

Remember, I advised caution I did not say people shouldn't buy these speakers or any others over the internet.

Not the exact same treatments, the same acoustic sound . You make the assumption that the customer can make his room sound like the showroom. Isn't that what you are implying? As well as making the assumption that the showroom environment was a good one....and you know that is not always the case.

Actually, room treatments aren't about making a room sound like another room. And no, showrooms aren’t always perfect but even the possibly bad acoustics of a showroom are better than nothing and it also gives people a chance to AB against other speakers and even take them home for an audition.

This is just too silly and your "straight for the throat" style doesn't do much to endear you to anyone I think.

 

[silversurfer]

You are right, this is silly. You haven't sampled any and made a blanket statement. I have not sampled all ID companies, and will say at least the ones I have heard are worth consideration, especially at their respective price points.

At least give some merit to the fact that you can audition ID speakers at home for the cost of shipping, and sometimes not even that. If willing, your local shop will you allow you to compare them in the shop as well.

My "go for the throat" style, and you calling things silly? Are you here to make friends or discuss issues/points?

 

[rikmeister]

i agree you should not make a blanket statement. You should listen to

some internet companies. Salk are the best i have ever listened too at the price. onix and swan are great speakers and so are tyler acoustics. all these companies and others are very straightforward. YOu can listen to some near you before you buy. Owners have posted the area they live in for you to come and demo them. all of these companies watch the posts here and add information and most have their own sites just for their followers. if you do not like salk speakers then buy some bose... but i will be listening to the overature of 1812 and remarking at the fantastic presentation as you just sit on the couch and think you have the best. john lane , mark schiffer and jim salk are not con artitsts. they truly love music and are trying to give us quality at different affordable prices. but you could always go to the white van and get your speakers ... and just take them home and be so proud you were not taken , hehehehe. choice is yours. no one forces you buy on the internet. there is not hard sell or outlandish promises. unilike bose who spend around 60% of their budget on marketing and ads.

 

[AdrianMills]

You are right, this is silly. You haven't sampled any and made a blanket statement. I have not sampled all ID companies, and will say at least the ones I have heard are worth consideration, especially at their respective price points.

At least all the ones you have heard… a few right? AB compared against equivalently priced B&M brands? And on the strength of this tiny sample you make broad statements? And remember, I have used ID brands, just not full range speakers as I have at least 8 B&M premises within a 90 minute drive and, given that, I think the disadvantages of ID brands outweigh the advantages.

BTW, I have never said people shouldn’t buy ID brands nor have I said that there aren’t advantages, as there are. However, there are also a lot of disadvantages as there can be for B&M brands. These are things I’ve said in threads on other forums that were discussing ID and B&M business models.

You seem to have taken my well meaning word of caution in this thread out of context and have made a mountain out of a mole hill in your attempt to make a “discussion” of out this.

At least give some merit to the fact that you can audition ID speakers at home for the cost of shipping, and sometimes not even that. If willing, your local shop will you allow you to compare them in the shop as well.

Yes, you can, but it’s not free, and there are risks. First you have to buy them, and if you don’t like them you have to pay for return shipping – usually - and what happens if you damage them? I for one wouldn’t even consider paying out several thousand $ on full range speakers I’d never seen or heard first hand – not unless I had no other choice.

As for the latter statement, well, I doubt if there are many B&M’s that would allow you to take in ID brands to compare – unless they were ignorant that they were ID brands.

Ever wonder why Bose are usually set up away from other brands? It’s so they cannot be AB compared… I really wonder how many of these ID brands would compare well against established B&M brands in a proper AB comparison… from what people here say abvout Salk, then they would probably fair well, but the others, how many would be dogs do you think?

My "go for the throat" style, and you calling things silly?

What I find silly is that you've taken my original comment way out of context and your insistence on making an argument out of a non-issue. Have I offended you in a previous life or something?

Are you here to make friends or discuss issues/points?

Both actually. Maybe in your testosterone driven rants you’re unable to understand that this is possible, even with the same people. Strange that huh?

 

[majorloser]

Could we just play nice for now?

 

[Tomorrow]

Could we just play nice for now?

Yeah, willy-wave a white flag everybody! Let's assume that we all agree on the age-old admonition...caveat emptor...and that doesn't mean 'empty cave', lol.

 

[silversurfer]

OK, fair enough. I may have taken your post out of context, but at first, you sure did defend like I did not.

From your last post, we actually seem to mostly agree now. I think we would agree more if you took chance and heard some of the better ID brands, which you could probably do since it seems you live in a pretty metropolitan area with that many B&M's so close.

You sure do like to make insulting remarks though rather than staying on topic.

 

[jsalk]

I ran across this thread last evening and found it quite interesting. I have never posted on this site before. But several questions were raised, so I thought a reply might be in order.

Salk's HT2 series is probably a really good compromise from the HT3 (the cabs seem to lack his Veracity works de arte). Nevertheless, that's part of what makes them more affordable. One question that lingers with me...have you heard that LCY tweet? How does it integrate with the Seas woofers, I wonder.

In terms of the HT2 cabinets, the MTM design with a woofer on top pretty much limits the front baffle to a rectangular format. But you can still have solid wood front baffles, trim and plinths if desired. So depending on what you want, they can be made quite exotic.

The LCY tweeter and Seas Excel drivers is a very good combination indeed. They are both extremely low mass for their types and are both very fast.

The LCY tweeter is down only 1 1/2 db at 25,000Hz and down only 3db at 60,000Hz. While you certainly can't hear these frequencies, it does mean that the LCY can reproduce a level of detail in the audible range that most traditional dome tweeters simply can't match.

The result is overtone detail that renders instruments in a very natural and life-like fashion. In addition, they are virtually transparent - like a crystal clear window into the sound. Most people who hear our Veracity speakers for the first time are amazed at the clarity and transparency of the top end and the detail in the midrange.

I just went back and I did find some specs, here's an interesting one for the HT2;

Recommended Amplification
30 - 150 tube watts
80 -250 solid state watts

And here's me thinking that a watt is just a watt.

Well, there is a difference in the way tubes and solid state behave when they reach clipping. With tubes, the gain simply doesn't increase as the input gain rises. This results in what many have called "soft" clipping. Solid state, on the other hand, can be very harsh when driven to clipping.

Neither situation is ideal, but tubes handle clipping in a much more favorable fashion. For this reason, you can get away with fewer watts using tubes.

I often demo my HT3's with a 40-watt tube amp and have never had any complaints. I wouldn't try it with a 40-watt solid state amp. I would want at least double the wattage with solid state.

Another question concerned HT3 specifications. In the fourth paragraph on our HT3 product page, there is a link call "specifications/cost." You will find some information there.

There are at least two other topics I would like to respond to, but I'll save those for follow-up posts.

- Jim

 

[j_garcia]

Welcome I noticed you offer the GR A/V-1s and the Criterion, but not the Diluceo. Why is that? It is good to see the manufacturers taking part in various forums.

 

[jsalk]

Internet direct vs. retail

We have often been approached by audio dealers expressing their desire to carry our speaker lines. But there are several reasons we have resisted to this point.

First, we publish our pricing on our web site. If we sold through dealers, their cost would be the same as our online pricing (our margins are too low to offer discounts). So we simply can't sell through dealers and continue to sell direct as we would be competing price-wise with our own dealers.

Here is the situation: A dealer will not normally stock a product with less than a 40% margin. And they would expect that we would advertise and promote on their behalf in order to help them sell. So we would have to more than double our pricing in order to sell through dealers. In fact, our prices would more than likely almost triple in the process.

Manufacturers who sell retail must build in these selling costs and more. Plus, they have greater overhead. In the industry, a manufacturer selling at retail cannot invest more than 10 - 15% of the retail selling price in parts. Since our costs are lower, we can actually invest roughly 50% in parts. So, dollar for dollar, we can utilize higher quality parts in our speakers (which we believe translates into real value for our customers).

But there is a downside. Potential customers can't go to a local audio store to hear our speakers. So we don't have the exposure that companies selling at retail do. There are four ways we address this situation.

First, we always welcome people to visit us here in Michigan. And many people have. We have had customers fly in from all over the US to audition our speakers.

Second, as the popularity of our speakers continues to grow, more and more people around the country are willing to allow individuals to come to their homes to hear our speakers. So, if asked, we try and set up audition opportunities as close as possible to the potential customer's home (which can sometimes be across town or sometimes a state or two away).

The third way we have dealt with this is to send out "demo" pairs to prospective customers. But there are two problems here. First, shipping costs for a speaker as large as the HT3 can be rather high. So hearing a "demo" pair in your home can cost you $500 or more for round-trip shipping.

The other problem is that the only demo pairs we normally have around are my personal pairs. On two occasions we have been coaxed into shipping my personal HT3's to potential customers for demo purposes. In both cases, even though the individuals promised to return them, they never came back. In both cases, the speakers were purchased. So I am a little reluctant to use this method as in each case it has forced me to go without for a while (which doesn't make me happy).

And fourth, if the person is just not comfortable purchasing a speaker they have never heard, I allow them to return the speakers if not completely satisfied. I can always re-sell them later to people unwilling to wait for a custom pair. Of course, there is little risk in this for me as no one has ever returned a pair of HT3's.

In fact, although we sell primarily to life-long audiophiles who trade gear like baseball cards, only one person has ever sold his HT3's. (This was because he became an audio dealer and couldn't sell our speakers. So it didn't make sense for him to have them in his home-based display room.) This is why you are very unlikely to see our speakers on re-sale sites like ebay or audiogon.com.

There are also advantages to selling direct. I prefer it because it allows us an opportunity to work directly with our customers. Through the process of building their project, we get to know them on a personal level. Many have become very good friends and a very high percentage of them become repeat customers.

So we hope to continue selling direct. Naturally, selling through dealers would help us grow faster. And perhaps at some time it will become necessary.

But until then, we will continue selling direct as it allows us to meet many new friends and offer them far higher value.

I hope this makes sense.

- Jim