Sad Experience:Onkyo, deceptive company, rude service

[tdamocles]

I would pressure A4L...They are the ones that made some retail profit off this transaction. Let their CS do magic.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just have to think that buying complex refurb electronic devices is very risky.

I suspect a lot are returned working units, that users return after buyers remorse, or too stupid to use.

If a unit has deep troubles, there really is not anything on these units that is economically serviceable. So the temptation to churn those units with deep problems is immense.

I would never consider buying a refurb receiver or pre/pro for a second.

 

[sholling]

I just have to think that buying complex refurb electronic devices is very risky.

I suspect a lot are returned working units, that users return after buyers remorse, or too stupid to use.

If a unit has deep troubles, there really is not anything on these units that is economically serviceable. So the temptation to churn those units with deep problems is immense.

I would never consider buying a refurb receiver or pre/pro for a second.

I have the opposite take. While your fears might have been well founded 30 years ago in the days before solid state and ICs it's just not the problem that it once was. Today when products are mass produced a small sample of each production run of each components are tested and then a small percentage of the final product. Of those products that ship a tiny number will be DOA or will fail within the 30 days retail return period. As you pointed out a far greater number will come back simply from buyers remorse or "honey you spent how much?". Any reputable manufacture will then subject those returned items to 100% inspection instead of the small statistical sample checked when new. In other words your odds of getting a bad unit are higher when buying new over a refurb.

The only disadvantage then is the length of the warranty. But the other advantage of modern designs is that barring abuse most products that make it through the first 90 days of normal stress are going to easily last several years. Items subject to physical wear like computer hard drives I wouldn't buy refurbished but receivers, MP3 players, and other pure electronics I don't sweat as long as I get a decent discount.

What I don't trust are certain major electronics retailers who who have been known to reseal or reshrink wrap all returns and put them right back back on the shelf.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have the opposite take. While your fears might have been well founded 30 years ago in the days before solid state and ICs it's just not the problem that it once was. Today when products are mass produced a small sample of each production run of each components are tested and then a small percentage of the final product. Of those products that ship a tiny number will be DOA or will fail within the 30 days retail return period. As you pointed out a far greater number will come back simply from buyers remorse or "honey you spent how much?". Any reputable manufacture will then subject those returned items to 100% inspection instead of the small statistical sample checked when new. In other words your odds of getting a bad unit are higher when buying new over a refurb.

The only disadvantage then is the length of the warranty. But the other advantage of modern designs is that barring abuse most products that make it through the first 90 days of normal stress are going to easily last several years. Items subject to physical wear like computer hard drives I wouldn't buy refurbished but receivers, MP3 players, and other pure electronics I don't sweat as long as I get a decent discount.

What I don't trust are certain major electronics retailers who who have been known to reseal or reshrink wrap all returns and put them right back back on the shelf.

Industry wide failure rates are unfortunately unknown. However I think things are worse than 30 years ago. Above all 30 years ago you had a good shot at doing a decent refurb.

I suspect a lot of the returned units are defective, many with intermittent problems, that stand a good chance of being missed on inspection and test.

The reason for the problem is increased complexity of processor and other chips. With that comes thinner semi conductor layers, with increased opportunity for aberrant channels to develop and manufacture or soon thereafter. Many of these faults will start by being intermittent before becoming permanent.

My son, a chip designer, tells me this whole issue is of great concern in the industry right now.

I know we differ, but I tend to feel a refurb is bad bet. They really need longer warranty, than new units.

My hunch is to encourage people to avoid them. I just wish we had better data so I could be more certain in my recommendation.

 

[GlocksRock]

I feel as long as the discount is great enough, then that outweighs the risk of failure. My parents and myself both purchased refurbished Denon receivers from ecost.com and they both came packed just like new, not a scratch on either unit, and so far both have had zero issues to report. But even if an item is discounted greatly, it still depends on the overall cost wether or not I would seriously consider it. You can still usually purchase a third party warranty such as square trade on many refurbised items if it makes you feel better.

 

[M Code]

Industry wide failure rates are unfortunately unknown. However I think things are worse than 30 years ago. Above all 30 years ago you had a good shot at doing a decent refurb.

I suspect a lot of the returned units are defective, many with intermittent problems, that stand a good chance of being missed on inspection and test.

The reason for the problem is increased complexity of processor and other chips. With that comes thinner semi conductor layers, with increased opportunity for aberrant channels to develop and manufacture or soon thereafter. Many of these faults will start by being intermittent before becoming permanent.

My son, a chip designer, tells me this whole issue is of great concern in the industry right now.

I know we differ, but I tend to feel a refurb is bad bet. They really need longer warranty, than new units.

My hunch is to encourage people to avoid them. I just wish we had better data so I could be more certain in my recommendation.

Here are some actual numbers from a major CE brand for returns of electronic products:
1. Total returns 12%
2. Returns due to change of mind, buyers remorse, didn't meet expectations 8%
3. Returns due to product issues 4%

SUMMARY
Majority of product returns are due to customer issues not product failures. Previously the sellers (internet, distributor, dealer) would take advantage of the product return to vendor, any product that came back was automatically returned to the prime vendor/brand. So today the brands have put tougher return rules in place, thats why you find easily in Best Buy, Frys.. the resealed boxes as the prime vendor/brands will not honor mass returns.

Once an actual defective product is received by the prime vendor/brand they will put these through an audit process to check for missing parts such as remote controls, batteries, antennas, manuals. For the unit themselves they will go through a mini-checkout line to see if the unit is functioning, but note that this is not a major checkout and often certain problems such as intermittant operation are not discovered. The cost of freight and rework service is quite high, and since the units have relatively short sales life as they have been replaced by a newer model their resale value has decreased significantly...
Buying B stock products are a gamble, but if the $ savings are enough it may be worth the risk..

Just my $0.00...

 

[jostenmeat]

Here are some actual numbers from a major CE brand for returns of electronic products:
1. Total returns 12%
2. Returns due to change of mind, buyers remorse, didn't meet expectations 8%
3. Returns due to product issues 4%

SUMMARY
Majority of product returns are due to customer issues not product failures. Previously the sellers (internet, distributor, dealer) would take advantage of the product return to vendor, any product that came back was automatically returned to the prime vendor/brand. So today the brands have put tougher return rules in place, thats why you find easily in Best Buy, Frys.. the resealed boxes as the prime vendor/brands will not honor mass returns.

Once an actual defective product is received by the prime vendor/brand they will put these through an audit process to check for missing parts such as remote controls, batteries, antennas, manuals. For the unit themselves they will go through a mini-checkout line to see if the unit is functioning, but note that this is not a major checkout and often certain problems such as intermittant operation are not discovered. The cost of freight and rework service is quite high, and since the units have relatively short sales life as they have been replaced by a newer model their resale value has decreased significantly...
Buying B stock products are a gamble, but if the $ savings are enough it may be worth the risk..

Just my $0.00...

Interesting. So, if your numbers are right, then I have a 1/3 chance that my unit had a "product issue". I guess the question might become, what is the % of success rate in completely fixing the issue? Who knows.

I saved 40% on my refurbed receiver acting as pre/pro over two years ago, and it's still working perfectly. My amp was bought as refurbished over three years ago, and it's still chugging along.

I prefer to buy new, but I'm a sucker for savings. Hm. I may lean towards new in the future, because I want to spoil myself more rotten than I already have.