Running B&W with Denon AVR

[8118]

Hi,

Sourcing for new speakers and love the B&W 800 series. I have a denon 3805, just wonder can this receiver runs the 804 or 803S/D for fronts and B&W on-wall surrounds? how about 4806 or 5805?

Is there anyone think B&W over pricey?

Thanks.........

 

[jaxvon]

Did you go and listen to the 803D's? I plan on going this week just for fun and lying to the salesman that I will actually be able to afford them in some reasonable timeframe. I'm sure you could drive them with your AVR, but I'm a staunch believer that when you're sinking that kind of money into speakers, they deserve to have their own amp. They're rated for a 500W amp and need a minimum of a 50w. And while they have a 90dB sensitivity, their impedance does dip down to 3ohms. I would say that if your 3805 does everything you want it do, grab a good 2ch amp or a pair of monoblocks for the fronts. At normal listening levels, I doubt that you'll notice a difference. However, when listening at high SPLs, that external amp is going to have the headroom to keep your sound clean on the dynamic passages.

What kind of budget are you looking at for an amp? I'm sure you B&W dealer sells Rotel gear, so he would love you long time if you decided to buy an RB-1090 too

 

[jimmit]

The specs for the 804S indicate that it is an 8 ohm speaker which has a sensitivity of 90 dB and power handling capability of 50 - 200 watts. The specs for the 803S indicate an 8 ohm speaker with a sensitivity of 90 dB and power handling capability of 50 - 250 watts. The 803D, 90 dB with power handling of 50 - 500 watts at 8 ohms.

The Denon AVR 3805's advertised specs show that it delivers 120 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

So, it would appear, at least by the numbers, that the 3805 should be able to drive any of these speakers. However, many here will tell you that the more power (head room) you have, the better -- particularly with full range speakers like the 803's and 804's.

As far as whether or not B&W speakers are overpriced, I think that with regard to any audio product, as you go up in the product line, you tend to reach a point of diminishing returns. For example, the 804S may sound noticably better than the 704, but the question is -- do they sound twice as better. I think not. B&W is a fine speaker maker and their higher priced speakers sound excellent and look gorgeous. I could be wrong, but my guess is that most folks would agree that you probably get the most for your money in the 600 series.

 

[8118]

Thanks.

No, i don really hv time go and listen to any, but i am really impress with review and recommendation, just hope to get more opinion before i go and buy any of the B&W. So, jaxvon, help me listen to the 803S if you can.....

Reading fr the spec, any receiver can runs the 800series (min 50W), but i believe this 50W is not THAT 50w, especially when you are driving 5 ch or 6 ch with your receiver. So, maybe i really need separate amp. or just trade in my 3805 to 5805 and bi-amp them (170wx2) ? Sound a good idea??

I don have well budget for speakers, pair of 804 or 803S are those i can afford, plus 3 on wall surronds. If I need to get a separete amp or trade in my
3805 to 5805, i need to give up those new surronds and stick with my old speakers.

Personally, I noticed those british speaker . e.g B&W and Quad are selling on quite high price, could it becoz of currecy rate??

 

[jaxvon]

No problem. I might hit up the dealer tomorrow. Do you have any preferences on source material? I have a lot of jazz and classic rock, so you might have something I'm familiar with. Just redbook though.

I do wonder...how can you buy without listening? Any decent B&W dealer should have some diamonds to listen to.

Send me a PM with your CD preferences, listening habits, which models I should listen to, etc. Obviously we all have individual tastes, but maybe I can do my best to give you my OPINION. Remember, this is just one of many things you should take into account in your decision.

 

[8118]

I just try to shortlist before going listen to every speaker. I am running my system mainly for movie, and music occasionally. Pop, live concert and classical are the most.

Thanks.

 

[jaxvon]

Those are broad catagories my man. Define "pop". I have oodles of Steely Dan. I'll list off some stuff that I know very well:

Dave Brubeck - Time Out
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue
Steely Dan (all albums)
Donald Fagen (all albums)
Eagles - Desperado
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon, Animals, Wish You Were Here
Stevie Wonder - Songs in the Key of Life
Rippingtons - Moonlighting, Curves Ahead, Sahara
Dave Grusin - Mountain Dance
Audioslave - Audioslave
Tom Petty - Greatest Hits
Mary Chapin Carpenter - Stones in the Road


And others. I really don't listen to classical, so I couldn't help you in that department. I'm really a classic rock/jazz person. I know for sure that I'll be playing Steely Dan and Pink Floyd at the next auditioning session. Particularly, I'll be listening for how "big" the speakers can sound on "SHIIIIINE OOOOON YOU CRAAAAAAZZY DIIIIIAMOND.....". I know what I WANT that to sound like, so we'll see if the B&Ws can deliver.

 

[AVRat]

Budget & Desires??

I'm a littled puzzled about what you're trying to accomplish.

What type system are you putting together, 5/6/7.1?
What are your budget guidelines? I'm seeing $6-9K.
Are you content with the processing capabilities of the 3805? Or, do you have the need and/or desire for the latest wizardry? If so, the 4806 would fit the bill unless you can utilize all that the 5805 has to offer.

No matter how you decide to configure your system, any of these speakers will benefit with more power.

 

[flyv65]

The Denon AVR 3805's advertised specs show that it delivers 120 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

So, it would appear, at least by the numbers, that the 3805 should be able to drive any of these speakers. However, many here will tell you that the more power (head room) you have, the better -- particularly with full range speakers like the 803's and 804's.

True, the 3805 is rated for 120 into two channels, but drops to about 77 into 5: not a lot of juice for those B&W speakers. A friend of mine has the Denon 4802R (125wpc) and the B&W CDM series speakers in a 5.1 setup. I thought it always sounded good...untill he got a 195wpc amp for the two front 9NT speakers. Much cleaner sound at lower volumes, and freed up the onboard amps for his office and patio speakers. The Denon is a fine reccy (shoot-I have one!), but I bet those B&W speakers wouldn't complain with more juice.

Bryan...yes, I'd like an amp too, please....

 

[shokhead]

True, the 3805 is rated for 120 into two channels, but drops to about 77 into 5: not a lot of juice for those B&W speakers. A friend of mine has the Denon 4802R (125wpc) and the B&W CDM series speakers in a 5.1 setup. I thought it always sounded good...untill he got a 195wpc amp for the two front 9NT speakers. Much cleaner sound at lower volumes, and freed up the onboard amps for his office and patio speakers. The Denon is a fine reccy (shoot-I have one!), but I bet those B&W speakers wouldn't complain with more juice.

Bryan...yes, I'd like an amp too, please....

7 channels equal power amp section/120 watts per channel? This means 77 watts per channel? We read things different.

 

[flyv65]

7 channels equal power amp section/120 watts per channel? This means 77 watts per channel? We read things different.

I'm just going by the report on the 3805 posted here on Audioholics;

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review10.php

At the bottom of the page the math for 7 channels driven is done: about 77wpc (my bad...it was 7 driven, not 5. ). Still, if you're only driving 5 channels that winds up being what, 105 to 110wpc at full boogie? Not alot of headroom for those B&W 800 series speakers, eh?

Bryan...and I really like my 3805-just wish it had more watts...

 

[PENG]

I posted this more than once before, one more time is not going to hurt. If you believe in those numbers, there should be enough power in the 3805 for those speakers.

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/804denon/index2.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/DenonAVR-3805lab.pdf

S&V tested it at 7X93W output at clipping, 1 kHz 8 ohms. This is not 20-20KHz or 0.05% distortion but at least S&V tested everybody the same way. Relative to other makes they tested recently, the Denon looks quite reasonable in terms fo all channel driven power output.

 

[flyv65]

I posted this more than once before, one more time is not going to hurt. If you believe in those numbers, there should be enough power in the 3805 for those speakers.

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/804denon/index2.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/DenonAVR-3805lab.pdf

S&V tested it at 7X93W output at clipping, 1 kHz 8 ohms. This is not 20-20KHz or 0.05% distortion but at least S&V tested everybody the same way. Relative to other makes they tested recently, the Denon looks quite reasonable in terms fo all channel driven power output.

It appears the links you referenced are in keeping with the Audioholics data (that is, consistent in their evaluation). I'm not saying that the 3805 won't push those speakers; just that jimmit will be running at a much higher dB level using the 3805's amps than if he were to use the 3805 as a prepro and a separate amp with at least 150wpc.

Bryan...even with the 90 dB sensitivity...

 

[PENG]

I use a 200 wpc amp to power my two 87 dB front speakers only. I think the 3805 can take care of the rest easily.

 

[indcrimdefense]

I have a 2805 which has less power than a 3805, with Klipsch RF-7 front & RF-5 rear, and have demoed a RC-7 center with my system. The 2805 had sufficient power for all 5 speakers, and did not have any clipping or distortion problems at high volume. Sound quality for music and movies was good, but I had the feeling my speakers would benefit from more power & perhaps a better pre/pro. Currently demoing a Cary Audio Cinema 6 pre/pro & Cary Cinema 5 amp (200 x 5), and the additional power makes a noticeable difference, fuller sound at all levels, better distinction between high/mid/low range, and better clarity, esp. with vocals. Also my speakers are not as bright with the Cary components. I have run the 2805 as a pre/pro with the Cary amp, which was also a noticeable improvement, but not the same quality as sound as the Cary pre/pro. Denon makes a great product for it's price point, in either the 2805 or 3805 which I also looked at. However it's not the same sound quality as the Cary, which for combo is msrp of 6500. I think Cary offers package deals on multiple components several times a year. I'm still waiting to demo the Cary Cinema DVD/CD player with the other components. I have heard a Rotel 1098 pre/pro with a Cary Cinema 7 amp (7 x 100 i think) with smaller B&W floor standing speakers which sounded very good, however it was a short in store listening session on music which I was unfamiliar with. It also depends on your listening preferences, I like a big, full sound, broad soundstage, and very precise definition between high/mid/low. The Denon had a very clean sound, but not as detailed or as full bodied as the Cary. I'm also waiting to demo rotel pre/pro & 5 channel amp before I make a decision. hope it helps.

 

[WebImages]

704s and 3805

True, the 3805 is rated for 120 into two channels, but drops to about 77 into 5: not a lot of juice for those B&W speakers.

OK - I'm confused.... How many watts does the Denon 3805 provide into 5 channels??? I can do basic math but I can't come up with 77 watts....

I'd like your opinion - Am purchasing a pair of B&W 704s, HTM7 for Center Channel and ?? for surrounds (I'm going to try a few speakers that I have sitting around then when I prove they don't work I'll get some B&W 6xx for the surrounds)....

I plan to Bi-Amp the 704s from the 3805.... Is that enough power or do I need something else for this system????

By the way - I currently don't plan to purchase a sub - - It's my belief that I'll get all the bass I want from the 704s - - any thoughts on that??

Thanks

John J

 

[jaxvon]

I've seen a lot of people having issues with biamping using the 3805. Judging by the power handling specs on the receiver, it should be enough power. However, like I have said in other instances, I think you would be well served by giving your front L&R speakers their own amplifier if you can afford it. Doing this will free up a lot of juice in the power supply to give your center and surrounds more life. If you can't afford an external amp, then it's nothing too big to worry about, as you aren't trying to drive Polk LSi speakers or Magnepans.

Regarding the bass issue...

The 704s only go down to 40Hz. If you're just listening to music, then it should be okay. However, if you plan on using this in a HT system, you need subwoofer. A lot of effects occur below 40Hz. Not only that, but HT soundtracks are designed to route low bass to the LFE track (the .1 in 5.1).

 

[89 VT HOKIES]

B&W's and Denon

8118, first I am new to this forum and I also just completed my new home with a 20 ft. x 34 ft. dedicated home theater. I set up the room with sound board on the front walls and the rest is just insulated and sheetrock.

I am running the B&W 803S, HTM1 Center and 2 SCM for the rears with a Denon 5805, Denon 2910. My projector is a Runco 510 and a Carada 106 inch screen.

I bi amp all speakers with the Denon and I must say I have plenty of power to drive the B&W's at insane levels. When I demoed the B&W's the dealer had them hooked up to the Denon 3805 and there was plenty of juice to drive them at high levels. Granted his room was only 14 X 20 but they sounded awesome and that is why I bought them as well as they were used for 3 months and I picked up the 803's and the HTM for $3500.

I would not worry about the 3805 driving the B&W's unless you have a large room say greater than 3500 cubic feet. But I must say the Denon 5805 is one sweet piece of equipment that IMO beats mid to upper level pre/pros.

 

[flyv65]

OK - I'm confused.... How many watts does the Denon 3805 provide into 5 channels??? I can do basic math but I can't come up with 77 watts....

Sorry 'bout that...it's actually 77 watts into *7* channels, not 5. I think it works out to about 105 wpc with 5 channels driven

I'd like your opinion - Am purchasing a pair of B&W 704s, HTM7 for Center Channel and ?? for surrounds (I'm going to try a few speakers that I have sitting around then when I prove they don't work I'll get some B&W 6xx for the surrounds)....

First, I'd look at the 705 speakers if you're leaning towards both movies and multi channel music; if you're more interested in the HT thing, then I'd look at the B&W surround speakers (DS7, I think). I've run rear channel speakers from other manufacturers that *worked*, but it wasn't untill I matched my speakers that I got slapped in the face with what I was missing. Something else: the 704 speakers are rated 50w to 150w aren't they? The 3805 might not be too shabby in that range. I'd give them a listen before I trotted out to buy a dedicated amp (the 703 speakers are another story).

I plan to Bi-Amp the 704s from the 3805.... Is that enough power or do I need something else for this system????

Sure you can "bi-amp" (wink, wink) the 704s with a 3805-but understand that you're not doubling the juice you're sending to the speaker. I did it to my Spendors (front channels) and think I noticed a slight improvement-although I don't think I would do it again, given the choice. Bear in mind also that some people have had poor results in the 3805 bi-amping process: you may find (as some have) that you've picked up a buzz or humm in the amped channels.

By the way - I currently don't plan to purchase a sub - - It's my belief that I'll get all the bass I want from the 704s - - any thoughts on that??

Thanks

John J

If you're listening to music, you'll probably be fine: I think the 704s go down to 30Hz at -6dB. Then again if you *ever* plan to watch an action/adventure movie (LotR, Saving Private Ryan, U-571, Matrix, etc.) you'll NEED a subwoofer with those speakers! There is a lot of bang for the buck in both the Hsu and SVS lines.

Bryan...set your system up for music and the movies will take care of themselves...

 

[WebImages]

Thanks to everyone

Thanks for all your input on the 704s with a 3805... All excellent advice.

I'm just a little nervous about this because I don't have the opportunity to listen to the 704s with the Denon (store doesn't sell Denon).

I have a small room (12 x 15) so I hope there will be plenty of power.

I just want to be sure that I get the sweet B&W sound on audio - - the movies will have to take care of themselves....

JohnJ