fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I think that if you really want a high end RC device you'd be better off contacting trinnov and going with one of their options. They've proven through third party testing that they have an amazing product.

Unfortunately they don't have any online retailers so you'd have to contact trinnov USA via e-mail to find out how to purchase and the exact price. Should be close to the McIntosh though (assuming I have the right price for it at $4500).
 
R

Ryan8886

Audioholic
ADA uses the Trinnov Optimizer in its TEQ series.

Products: Home Theater: Home Theater Preamps/Controllers: TEQ-12, TEQ-8, and TEQ-4 Room Correction System - ADA

I think that's the only high-end integrated use of it. I think the stand alone unit from Trinnov is more like $13,000. As said above, check with them. Us poor folk get by with the consumer-grade version in the Newcastle R-972. :D It made a HUGE difference in my room. I can only imagine what the "full-power" version can do. As Ferris Bueller said...."It's so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up." :D
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
I'm just wondering if there is that much of a difference with one hooked up! For 5k+.... Is it reaallllly worth it?
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Asking whether it's worth is totally subjective. It's more a question of what you can live with and how it sounds to you. If you go and listen to some of the different forms audyssey in your own home and like how it sounds, then no, theres exaclty zero point in spending the extra money. You can get top tier audyssey for under $2000 in many receivers.

If you like to tweak things and understand all that trinnov gives you and allows you to do and you'll appreciate the abundance of extra features and abilities then yes it is definitely worth the money since you'll end up spending at least that much for a receiver and then all the other necessary pieces to get something similar.

I'll also note that for mostly dead rooms that have good acoustics/tons of room treatment and very flat measuring speakers, then no you probably won't notice a whole lot. RC is highly dependent on the fact that there are things there to correct. You have to take measurements as things are now to know whether you'll be gaining anything by spending that money on RC products. I'll say that sub EQ is probably more important that anything, especially if you multiple subs.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I wouldn't spend $5000 for room correction unless I had spent at least $1000 in room treatments!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Yeah, I guess I didn't clarify that. I should have said "spent $1000 on treatments before evaluating whether to spend big bucks on RC."
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Personally I think that spending that much on RC is a little excessive. I know I wouldn't do it and am not entirely sure why anyone else would. It would cost less money to become a certified audyssey pro installer. Once you're an audyssey pro installer you can just buy an audyssey pro upgradeable receiver and do up to a 32 point measurement, and boost and trim to your hearts desire. Plus they teach you stuff.

I think the trinnov and uber expensive harman system are only for studios or the extremely anal who HAVE to have the flattest response possible for a given room.

In other words, I agree with you. Doing little room treatment stuff like adding a thick rug, drapes or panels would come before that kind of money.

YMMV
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
I wouldn't spend $5000 for room correction unless I had spent at least $1000 in room treatments!
Which helps defeat the point of RC in the first place. :D
Not really. The primary purpose of treatments is absorption and/or diffusion. Equalization is something else entirely.

“Room Correction” is a misnomer, IMO. Equalization doesn’t “correct” a room, it merely provides some compensation for its effects. If you have a “live” room with a lot of hard surfaces, it has a lot of reverberation because the signal reflects and bounces around all over the place, and takes a long time to fade away. Anyone will tell you that an equalizer is no cure for a "live" room, nor is any other electronic device. That requires absorptive treatment, furnishings, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the equalizer is a great tool for what it does. But you have to know and respect its limitations.


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Not really. The primary purpose of treatments is absorption and/or diffusion. Equalization is something else entirely.

“Room Correction” is a misnomer, IMO. Equalization doesn’t “correct” a room, it merely provides some compensation for its effects. If you have a “live” room with a lot of hard surfaces, it has a lot of reverberation because the signal reflects and bounces around all over the place, and takes a long time to fade away. Anyone will tell you that an equalizer is no cure for a "live" room, nor is any other electronic device. That requires absorptive treatment, furnishings, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the equalizer is a great tool for what it does. But you have to know and respect its limitations.


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Wayne,
Thanks for chiming in.
I re-read your post a couple of times, and if I follow you correctly, you are basically saying:
If a room needs correction, that should be done using treatments.
Electronic/auto EQ will help compensate for a bad room, but not be as effective as treatments.

Is that about right?
Truth be told, a lot of us do use EQ to compensate for room issues - especially regarding help with bass nodes.

Please feel free to be blunt if my interpretation is BS!:D

Thanks,
Kurt
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Wayne,
Thanks for chiming in.
I re-read your post a couple of times, and if I follow you correctly, you are basically saying:
If a room needs correction, that should be done using treatments.
Electronic/auto EQ will help compensate for a bad room, but not be as effective as treatments.

Is that about right?
Truth be told, a lot of us do use EQ to compensate for room issues - especially regarding help with bass nodes.

Please feel free to be blunt if my interpretation is BS!:D

Thanks,
Kurt
Think of room correction as a high WAF method for partially treating a room acoustically. :D
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
Hey Kurt,

I probably should have been more detailed or clear, but didn’t want to hijack the thread too badly. But since you asked... :D

Basically, equalization and room treatments really don’t have a lot do with each other. If your room is made of glass and reverberates and echoes like crazy, there’s nothing equalization can do for that!

Check out this little chart below I recently came across on another Forum that shows the effects of treatments in a room (click on it twice and it should open in another window):


ETC Treatments.jpg


With the top row of boxes, the room has no treatment and has lots of reflections, as the ETC graph (column A) shows. The audible effect of the reflections is seen in the ragged frequency response with lots of comb filtering (column B). Notice that as treatments are applied (e.g. the rows progressing top to bottom), frequency response becomes less ragged and more linear.

But notice the “B” box in the last row: Even with optimal treatments in place, frequency response is still in need of equalization. So, even though the treatments tamed the reverberation, they did nothing for the anomalies in response.

Now, if your room is “live” like we see with the top row, you could use the 1/3-octave smoothing feature with response graphs generated by a program like REW. That would minimize the effects of the comb filtering and get you a graph that looks more like the one on the bottom row, and you could equalize based on that. And you’d get an improvement in sound quality even if you still have all the reverberation. But the equalizer has no effect on the room itself.

It’s commonly known that below about 500 Hz, the room influences the response of a speaker. EQ can help with that and make an audible improvement, but again, it’s really just providing some compensation for the room. It’s not fixing the room. There are treatments that can work down in this range, but from what I can tell from graphs I’ve seen they mainly absorb energy and reduce decay times; they don’t totally address response anomalies the way equalization can.

So hopefully you can see the difference between treatments and equalization: Equalization is not going to fix reverberation problems; that requires absorption and / or diffusion. But absorption is not going to fix any underlying problems with response that might be present. That requires equalization. Make sense?

Really, about the only room issue an EQ can address is a mode in the bass frequencies. But again, it really doesn’t “fix” the problem. It merely deprives the sound system of energy (amplitude) at the offending frequency. Fortunately this is sufficient for improved listening: Since the audio reproduction is “artificially” generated by an electronic system, it’s easy enough to employ electronic equalization to “artificially” address the problem. But of course that doesn’t fix the problem - it won’t be a help if you invite a musician friend over to play his upright bass or cello in your listening room. There is no facility for equalizing built into an acoustic instrument. :D

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Wayne,
Thanks for taking the time. I knew most of that, but hadn't put it together quite so well yet! Those graphs are the ticket!

Cheers,
Kurt
 
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