Ribbon Drivers - Theoretical Question

R

RedJacket

Audioholic Intern
Theoretical Question -

Ribbons are exclusively thought as high frequency / ultra high frequency drivers. Assuming you were able to solve all the implementation problems that plague Ribbons (crossover point, dispersion, degradation of ribbon over time, transformer, etc), and if you had a diaphragm material that was strong enough, could you potentially make a full range 'ribbon' headphone driver?

The reasoning is that if you solve the implementation challenges, you can get a Ribbon in a pair of headphones. And the material was strong enough, it could handle the movement for bass frequencies, and in a headphone setting, wouldn't have to output that much (compared to a full speaker system). Just a hypothetical here.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Theoretical Question -

Ribbons are exclusively thought as high frequency / ultra high frequency drivers. Assuming you were able to solve all the implementation problems that plague Ribbons (crossover point, dispersion, degradation of ribbon over time, transformer, etc), and if you had a diaphragm material that was strong enough, could you potentially make a full range 'ribbon' headphone driver?

The reasoning is that if you solve the implementation challenges, you can get a Ribbon in a pair of headphones. And the material was strong enough, it could handle the movement for bass frequencies, and in a headphone setting, wouldn't have to output that much (compared to a full speaker system). Just a hypothetical here.
Here is a picture of a pair of Apogee full range ribbon speakers.

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Have you heard them? JW
Yes, I have. I heard them many moons ago. I did extended auditions of them at a loose end in Phoenix and Portland Oregon.

They were very similar to Electrostatic panels, with all of their strengths and problems and an additional one.

They beamed, and were spl restricted to a degree.

There was one additional problem. The wags used to say, "You need a smoker amp, and when the smoke escaped it was over!" The impedance was one ohm. So people tried transformers, and above all 1 or 2 ohm resistors mounted on heat sinks.

Bob Carver had a hybrid ribbon, that crossed at 100 Hz. One of our cardiologists has a set of those, in fact a number of iterations over the years. One set was delivered personally by Bob Carver, and that was when he got to hear my monitor TLs in my Grand Forks studio. These speakers are now my rear backs.



Bob had the same problem as Martin Logan.

A planar speaker is a line source, and spl reduces 3db for every doubling of distance. A moving coil driver is a point source and spl reduces 6 db for every doubling of distance. Add to that one is a monopole, but at the operating range we are talking here, a full space radiator. A panel like and electrostatic, ribbon or magneto planar like Magnepan are di-poles with figure of eight radiation pattern.

So integration is impossible. Franky I disliked Bobs speakers nearly as much as the hybrid Martin Logans. They are worse because the crossover is higher. This issue applies to sub integration also. This is why the Gradient sub was developed for the Quads.

We have a thread going about a Funk line array. I have not yet dared ask how you integrate that seamlessly with a sub.

As you well know a perfectly balanced integrated bass is a rarity.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Yes, I have. I heard them many moons ago. I did extended auditions of them at a loose end in Phoenix and Portland Oregon.

They were very similar to Electrostatic panels, with all of their strengths and problems and an additional one.

They beamed, and were spl restricted to a degree.

There was one additional problem. The wags used to say, "You need a smoker amp, and when the smoke escaped it was over!" The impedance was one ohm. So people tried transformers, and above all 1 or 2 ohm resistors mounted on heat sinks.

Bob Carver had a hybrid ribbon, that crossed at 100 Hz. One of our cardiologists has a set of those, in fact a number of iterations over the years. One set was delivered personally by Bob Carver, and that was when he got to hear my monitor TLs in my Grand Forks studio. These speakers are now my rear backs.



Bob had the same problem as Martin Logan.

A planar speaker is a line source, and spl reduces 3db for every doubling of distance. A moving coil driver is a point source and spl reduces 6 db for every doubling of distance. Add to that one is a monopole, but at the operating range we are talking here, a full space radiator. A panel like and electrostatic, ribbon or magneto planar like Magnepan are di-poles with figure of eight radiation pattern.

So integration is impossible. Franky I disliked Bobs speakers nearly as much as the hybrid Martin Logans. They are worse because the crossover is higher. This issue applies to sub integration also. This is why the Gradient sub was developed for the Quads.

We have a thread going about a Funk line array. I have not yet dared ask how you integrate that seamlessly with a sub.

As you well know a perfectly balanced integrated bass is a rarity.
Can't say I'm surprised.

If you want to get even response in a large flat long venue it's hard to beat a line array, but I'm not sure I like them for a home theater though. I think Legacy Audio was the company that had the big one at Lone Star Audio Fest last year they were impressive. The best speakers I heard at the conference were probably the space invaders horns by Van Zyl. If you ever get the chance to check out his designs they certainly are well thought out.

I do really like the ribbon sound for the tweeter in my small theater.
 
mwmkravchenko

mwmkravchenko

Audioholic
"We have a thread going about a Funk line array. I have not yet dared ask how you integrate that seamlessly with a sub.

As you well know a perfectly balanced integrated bass is a rarity."

Take a shot at asking the question please.

The answers might be interesting.
 
Acoustat

Acoustat

Full Audioholic
. One set was delivered personally by Bob Carver, and that was when he got to hear my monitor TLs in my Grand Forks studio. These speakers are now my rear backs.




I'm jealous.
Are those the Amazing Loudspeaker?

I auditioned them before I bought the ones I have now. They were gloss black.
I liked the full ESL a lot better for 2ch, but am rather jealous ATM.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Technically it's not a pure "frequency" problem. It's "frequency at SPL".

The basic thing about ribbons is that their extrusion (XMAX) is very low. I can vibrate a ribbon at 1Hz; but because it doesn't move far it can't move much air so you won't hear it (that and the fact that you can't hear 1Hz).

So since you lack extrusion, you have to make up for it with surface area. A ribbon that could put the kinds of SPL needed for headphones is likely not too difficult; but would be terribly large to put on your ear.
 
M

miroslav

Audiophyte
I hooked up my Apogee speakers couple night ago and enjoyed music like never before...just amazing sound...so I forgot to turn my amp. off...volume was all the way down...next morning left speaker had this banging sound...it's like you smack 2 (2x4 ors) against each other,...very loud...so I shut down the amp.....
After a while I played some music but that banging noise kept coming back..so it must be something wrong with that speaker....Unfortunately I will have to go back to my Insignia...:(:eek:

( * music first. work second, food...photography...and women #12)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I hooked up my Apogee speakers couple night ago and enjoyed music like never before...just amazing sound...so I forgot to turn my amp. off...volume was all the way down...next morning left speaker had this banging sound...it's like you smack 2 (2x4 ors) against each other,...very loud...so I shut down the amp.....
After a while I played some music but that banging noise kept coming back..so it must be something wrong with that speaker....Unfortunately I will have to go back to my Insignia...:(:eek:

( * music first. work second, food...photography...and women #12)
Chances are you have blown the amp and it is producing bursts of DC offset. I suspect that has already damaged the speaker.

You did not head my warnings in your original post. That Yamaha amp is in no way suitable to drive those speakers. It is not nearly capable by a long shot.
 
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