Receiver upgrade HD / non-hd audio formats is it worth it?

[wiyosaya]

I have an older Yamaha RX-V2500. It does not have HDMI at all, so therefore, I am unable to decode formats like DTS HD Master Audio. Right now, my BR player is able to re-encode the BR HD audio formats to DTS, and I am using this.

I cannot say that I know what the HD audio formats sound like as I am not certain that I have heard them anywhere except maybe my local Audio / Video shop.

So I am wondering what will upgrading to a receiver that supports the HD audio formats give me? Is the sound quality of the HD audio formats vastly superior to the non-HD formats? Anyone out there done a comparison and would like to chime in?

Thanks.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I would say that the updated codecs provide a little more dynamics but not night and day.

As a true Audioholic- you have to upgrade to the latest everything but I wouldn't get in a huge hurry.

 

[j_garcia]

I would call the new formats superior, not vastly superior. For that feature alone, I would not upgrade, but I am sure there are others as well that could justify it. If you want to hear the formats, you can always get a player with multichannel analog outs to use with the current receiver which has multichannel analog inputs.

 

[agarwalro]

To discern the differences between the non HD vs HD audio formats, you need a system in which there are no weaknesses. Meaning, a properly sorted room (shape, size and acoustically treated), speakers (that can generate the appropriate SPL while keeping distortion inaudible) and speaker placement that minimizes room interactions.

On a completely separate front, the same movie may not necessarily be better in one format when compared to the other. HD audio has the potential to sound better than their previous generation formats, but, if that potential has been exploited, is another consideration altogether.

I like J's idea, since your receiver has a 5.1 analog input, maybe you can try these with a new/borrowed BD player.

 

[jostenmeat]

I have an older Yamaha RX-V2500. It does not have HDMI at all, so therefore, I am unable to decode formats like DTS HD Master Audio. Right now, my BR player is able to re-encode the BR HD audio formats to DTS, and I am using this.

I cannot say that I know what the HD audio formats sound like as I am not certain that I have heard them anywhere except maybe my local Audio / Video shop.

So I am wondering what will upgrading to a receiver that supports the HD audio formats give me? Is the sound quality of the HD audio formats vastly superior to the non-HD formats? Anyone out there done a comparison and would like to chime in?

Thanks.

My subjective 2 cents. I rent a lot of Netflix blurays. I'm pretty sure it never says the codec on the sleeve. I usually know within moments if the track is lossy. This included Red, and Hunger Games, among others.

So I think it's very easy to tell. Is it possible to create an experimentation setup where I could not tell? Of course, if the HD tracks were poorly made. A bad CD might not be distinguishable from a low bitrate MP3, but a beautifully made one probably would be. Anyway, so I believe the difference will be there, even with affordable speakers, because there are some great speaker values out there.

THIS SAID, this is what I really wonder: Maybe I should be more specific, and say that it's easy to tell when it's particularly Dolby Digital. I believe that's what all the Netflix experiences might have been. You see, the bit rate is significantly lower with DD than DTS (both being on bluray), I'm pretty certain less than half the bitrate.

So maybe if it was DTS instead, I could not have discerned the difference as easily. More than double is nothing to sneeze at.

BTW, DTS is not re-encoded by your player, it's read straight from the DTS-MA. MA comprises of dual bitstreams, the first being the "core", and the second being the "extension". In your case, just the core is being read, which is something like 1509 kbps.

 

[jostenmeat]

I've thought about this stuff before way back when, and some old thoughts resurfaced after my last post above. Firstly, I'd like to say while that the DD tracks I heard were crap, I cannot say that is proof that DD cannot be capable of good audio. Maybe it's just the mix itself, maybe the engineers or people who hire them put the DD track at a very low priority, I don't know.

They say one of the difficulties in comparing lossy vs lossless is that the mix itself might be different. I remember specifically with The Dark Knight, I found the lossless to be 100x better than the lossy. But maybe a big part of that is simply because the mix is so much superior, incidentally, however.

But the DTS track is using the same track, but a portion of the lossless track. I think that would be a more fair comparison of lossy vs lossless, and DTS would be the best candidate (I assume) because of the higher bitrate it's capable of.

All the above aside, in my limited and subjective experiences, perhaps due simply to the quality of mixes supplied to each, TrueHD >>>>> DD. Therefore IMO, it's worth upgrading your receiver. You can buy a bluray player with analog outs, but that's already going to cost a significant amount of money, and you'll have extremely limited bass mgmt, and about zilch for post processing.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would call the new formats superior, not vastly superior. For that feature alone, I would not upgrade, but I am sure there are others as well that could justify it. If you want to hear the formats, you can always get a player with multichannel analog outs to use with the current receiver which has multichannel analog inputs.

I'm going to dissent. In my view the loss less codecs are vastly superior. BD is my favorite format. In addition to a great picture, to me BD with DTS master HD, or Dolby True HD, gives by far the best audio. Compared to Dolby 5.1 or DTS 5.1 it is just not even a close contest. Even the dialog is noticeably better.

May be it is system resolution or something, but this system just opens up to a whole new level with good BD discs. And I think open up is the right word, as it is the ambient envelope that is really shorted on lossy codecs and it really shows.

So, yes a vast in fact a mega improvement.

 

[3db]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. Blu Ray from a visual perspective is leaps and bounds better than standard DVD. From an audio perspective, there's some improvement but not the gigantic steps that some have mentioned here on this post. It all depends on the recording engineer how he puts down the movie soundtrack whehter it be lossy or lossless. My reference for great sound is not a BluRay with the lossless codecs but a normal DVD with DTS. That is Master & Commander. The soundtrack will easily hold its own to any of the BluRays that I have such as Avatar, Star Trek, Iron Man, teh last Termininator flick, The Avengers, etc. I realize that Master & Commander may be the exception but it is also an indicator on how good something can sound when someone behind the scenes knows what they are doing.

 

[wiyosaya]

Thanks for the replies. There are some interesting comments.

I have Paradigm 11se Mk. IIIs for fronts, a Paradigm CC-300 for the center, and two Paradigm 5se Mk. IIIs for rears along with a Paradigm Servo-15 sub. The speakers are about 20-years old. Personally, I think the system still sounds quite good, and also sounds better than most of the movie theaters in my area.

They don't seem to sound like the current Paradigm Studio 100's, however, in their day, they gave the equivalent Paradigm Studio series a run for their money. In a listening test at the dealer at the time, I compared them with the equivalent Studio series speaker and on different CDs one or the other would sound better, so I went with the lower-cost ones as a "value" buy.

That said, a speaker upgrade is not an option for me at this time. However, a receiver upgrade to something like a Yamaha RX-A1020 or A2020 is within reach.

One problem that I have had trouble with from time-to-time is muddy dialog. I find the comments by TLS Guy regarding dialog clarity interesting. It seems that upgrading the audio processing capabilities of my system would be a first step. Personally, I had always thought that a speaker upgrade would be better, however, if the problem is "inferior" source material, it seems that an upgrade to HD audio format capability would be a logical step.

In any event, I'll probably take some time to think this through.

 

[wiyosaya]

I realize that Master & Commander may be the exception but it is also an indicator on how good something can sound when someone behind the scenes knows what they are doing.

I have to agree on this. Back in the day, Pink Floyd had unmatched sound engineering. It makes a vast difference when the sound engineer has an ear for sound.

 

[markw]

I would call the new formats superior, not vastly superior. For that feature alone, I would not upgrade, but I am sure there are others as well that could justify it. If you want to hear the formats, you can always get a player with multichannel analog outs to use with the current receiver which has multichannel analog inputs.

I agree, but finding current players with multi-channel analog outs is becoming more and more difficult. One may find that doing so might cost just about as much as replacing the receiver itself with one that can handle HDMI.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. Blu Ray from a visual perspective is leaps and bounds better than standard DVD. From an audio perspective, there's some improvement but not the gigantic steps that some have mentioned here on this post. It all depends on the recording engineer how he puts down the movie soundtrack whehter it be lossy or lossless. My reference for great sound is not a BluRay with the lossless codecs but a normal DVD with DTS. That is Master & Commander. The soundtrack will easily hold its own to any of the BluRays that I have such as Avatar, Star Trek, Iron Man, teh last Termininator flick, The Avengers, etc. I realize that Master & Commander may be the exception but it is also an indicator on how good something can sound when someone behind the scenes knows what they are doing.

The BD version of Master and Commander, was messed up in the LFE channel. However, that said the dialog in the BD version is significantly more natural than the DVD version.

For movies the best demo I know of is War Horse. From an audio standpoint it is a master piece. The recording of the LSO is superb. The sound scapes created are totally believable. 360 sound localization with depth, and I mean depth. There are effects created off to the side of you that really do sound miles away, which they are.

This movie demands very good high performance speakers in all 7 locations, and every one is pushed hard. sound images move seamlessly from speaker to speaker. With puny poorly placed surrounds and rears you would have no idea what a masterpiece of sound engineering this movie is.

However movies are not my big focus. My collection of opera and symphonic music is really growing at clip, and I'm loving it. I never thought I could get such enormous pleasure out of any system and the spectacular audio from DTS master audio is where it begins.

I just got delivery of the Mahler symphony number 8, the "Symphony of 1000" from Caracas Venezuela, all under the masterful control of the "Dude": - Gustavo Dudamel.

He had the whole LA symphony plus the Simon Bolivar Symphony Orchestra, of which the Dude has been principal conductor since the age of 17, on stage, an enormous children's choir, and huge main chorus of I would guess mainly teenagers and university student and a large team of soloists.

I just put the disc on when it arrived just to see the opening. Of course guess what I had to see it to the end.

Now Mahler is one of those composers like Wagner, who know how to make a short circuit to the mid brain and really mess with your emotions.

I was struck by how carefully Dudamel kept these huge forces at bay. All carefully crafted and precise, giving very clear direction the whole time.

The children were amazing, they sang from memory throughout. The first half of the symphony is in Latin and the second half in German.

The ebb and flow all magically interwoven. Dudamel unlike a lot of conductors these days, never let his brass players over blow, so they stay on pitch. I was wondering who he would build the gigantic triumphal climax. Well in the final scene an enormous brass choir was suddenly revealed in a balcony to the left of the stage. Just wonderful stuff.

After the dying sounds many of the children were crying. Right then I knew, that young as they were, they had understood, and grasped the huge emotional release of this final section.

I would say all of the performers apart from members of the LA symphony were less than 30 years of age.

All this is brought about by the extraordinary music education program in Venezuela, El Sistema.

By the way, this finale always defeated the LP. This huge climax in the inside groove, always ruined Mahler's triumph. So now we can have really great audio and the picture. It does not get any better than that.

Now I think about it, El Sistema is worth a thread of its own. It is a really compelling story and be actively reduplicated here.

 

[j_garcia]

I agree, but finding current players with multi-channel analog outs is becoming more and more difficult. One may find that doing so might cost just about as much as replacing the receiver itself with one that can handle HDMI.

Yes, they are few and they tend to be more pricey, but they are out there, and not just from Oppo. Panasonic has one and I believe Sony has one as well, both under $300. For the Non-Oppo players, those are pretty much the only ones I'd be looking at anyway.

**just checked and I am not sure there's a Sony with m/c analog outs?

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, they are few and they tend to be more pricey, but they are out there, and not just from Oppo. Panasonic has one and I believe Sony has one as well, both under $300. For the Non-Oppo players, those are pretty much the only ones I'd be looking at anyway.

**just checked and I am not sure there's a Sony with m/c analog outs?

It is no longer legal to provide those outputs, that is why they are getting hard to find.

In any event, they are a pain, since the multi inputs are on the straight through node, so you have to set up level and bass management twice. So you have to "copy" your main system set up to the BD player.

I say to anyone wanting to find a player to do this rather than upgrading their receiver or pre/pro is wasting time and money.

Just bite the bullet and go HDMI with the loss less codecs. You will do it in the end, and likely fast after messing with multi analog outs. You won't regret it and that's the right answer in my book.

 

[3db]

It is no longer legal to provide those outputs, that is why they are getting hard to find.

In any event, they are a pain, since the multi inputs are on the straight through node, so you have to set up level and bass management twice. So you have to "copy" your main system set up to the BD player.

I say to anyone wanting to find a player to do this rather than upgrading their receiver or pre/pro is wasting time and money.

Just bite the bullet and go HDMI with the loss less codecs. You will do it in the end, and likely fast after messing with multi analog outs. You won't regret it and that's the right answer in my book.

I do concur from a hardware perspective. Its easier to manage via hdmi than the m/c inputs. However, I would keep that Yamaha and set it up as a secondary system without BluRay or as an audio system only. That Yamaha has a very stout amplifier section in it and can handle most speakers thrown at it.

 

[wiyosaya]

In any event, they are a pain, since the multi inputs are on the straight through node, so you have to set up level and bass management twice. So you have to "copy" your main system set up to the BD player.

Agreed. That was my first thought. It would be a completely manual setup. Though some would argue its value, it is not possible to equalize tone on those inputs. Probably the only thing that can be done with those inputs is to level their volume. Personally, I like some of the DSP programs on the unit, and they are bypassed as well.

 

[j_garcia]

It is no longer legal to provide those outputs, that is why they are getting hard to find.

In any event, they are a pain, since the multi inputs are on the straight through node, so you have to set up level and bass management twice. So you have to "copy" your main system set up to the BD player.

I say to anyone wanting to find a player to do this rather than upgrading their receiver or pre/pro is wasting time and money.

Just bite the bullet and go HDMI with the loss less codecs. You will do it in the end, and likely fast after messing with multi analog outs. You won't regret it and that's the right answer in my book.

Analog VIDEO is no longer legal, not AUDIO.

 

[jostenmeat]

Agreed. That was my first thought. It would be a completely manual setup. Though some would argue its value, it is not possible to equalize tone on those inputs. Probably the only thing that can be done with those inputs is to level their volume. Personally, I like some of the DSP programs on the unit, and they are bypassed as well.

You already know what I think, but if you did go with MCA, I'd still shotgun connect SPDIF, so that I can actually have better bass mgmt and post processing for anything less than lossless, and that I could matrix mono or stereo sources as well when I wanted to. I assume you'd only have one bluray player connected.

I totally agree with TLS on "ambient envelope" and "dialogue". When comparing back to back THD and DD, dialogue is what makes it most evident. When starting a lossy BD without knowing it, it might be the spatial envelope that is most telling to me that it is not a lossy track.

I simply haven't tested DTS vs MA, but if TLS is right that the difference is basically the same as THD vs DD, well you already know I believe it's not even close.