Receiver Quality Control - Reliabilty

anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
Thought I would get a discussion going on what peoples feelings are about all the problems you hear about receivers and the so called quality control issues you hear about with the major brands of receivers. (H/K, Onkyo, Yamaha, Marantz, Sony, Denon, etc). Does anyone here feel that what we here online especially at AVS that most of these so called QC problems are grossly exaggerated and not really. In my mind most AV websites make up such a small percentage of the actual people and units sold that most of these opinions you hear about a manufacture are somewhat baseless. I will give you that some people have repeated issues with the same model but some of this could be a bad unit or batch from the manufacture. (It happens to all companies.) Or the person is not connecting or using the device correctly. Or just plain bad luck. I had to go through three Imac's until I had one that worked correctly. But I don't thing Apple has QC issues because of this. I chalk it up to bad luck.

My gut feeling is none of the major companies are having any QC issues and that most forums blow these things way out of proportion and most people are not installing and calibrating there systems correctly. However I still get nervous since I'm about ready to drop 700 on a new receiver. I love the info I get on the forums but at the same time I hate the way everything plays with your mind.

I would like to add that while alot of companies are trimming the amp sections and offering more features in the newer models it by no means should be confused with quality control and reliability. My ramblings are more about a product performing to its specifications as listed in a reliable manner.

Hopefully some of the ramblings above make some sense. I just wanted to get some discussion going since I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new receiver. :D
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
I believe that it don't matter much if you purchase from online, like Audioholics, or from a speciality dealer, or a place like Accessories 4 less or 6th Avenue Electronics.

But, what I can say for sure is this: Since the days that I purchased audio electronic products (about over 40 years), I can honestly say that every manufacturer is always behind the curve, and that their products always have some flaws of one sort or another. I'm not talking about a defective or not reliable product, but about some type of implementation in their circuit boards, or DSPs, or codecs, or wrong components' values, or bass management, or volume levels, or channels' levels, delays, etc., or Dacs, or any type of implementation from parts to values related to improper total satisfactory perfection. It simply does not exists.

I can tell you all the flaws that I'm aware from all my audio and video components.

That's my take on this. But I'm overall very satisfied, because I do understand the various complexities and the business aspect, plus the speed of the times we live in right now, and also yesterday with the inferior technologies.

I can write a full thread about this, but I won't (not now anyway). :)

Bob
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
An online forum is far too small to represent a true sample of product reliability. If a particular model is portrayed as good or bad here (or on another forum), it's only a portion of the actual number of users and most people won't really respond one way or another. Having worked at a few electronics stores, we noticed trends when something we sold failed frequently, or not, because we were authorized to service everything we sold and did service on a lot of other brands. We saw a ton of Sansui, Harmon Kardon 330A/B/C and many others that were highly recommended by Consumer Reports.

No manufacturing process is perfect and that includes all aspects of a product's coming to market. One thing that causes higher failure rate is tolerance stacking, which the manufacturer may not be able to control. A group of coincidences can come together and suddenly, they're selling junk, even though their design and intentions may be great. When I started selling audio equipment, most manufacturers were fine with a 1% failure rate but that was when they weren't selling as many pieces annually. Now, if we were to see how many failures occur in a year for one manufacturer, we'd probably swallow our tongues because of the sheer numbers.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
^^^ +1 :) Couldn't agree more with that. Excellent post.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
Nice posts from both of you. Bob I would to hear you elaborate more if you decide to.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Nice posts from both of you. Bob I would to hear you elaborate more if you decide to.
LOL. Anamorphic, it would take a big chunk of my time to do a proper elaboration, based on my personal experience, trust me, I ain't kidding.
I would llove too though, as I know that it would create an excellent discussion thread, from many people here, and at large.

Many of these discoveries came from very dedicated research from years and several sources, all added together. I'm sure some people would be very surprise to learn some intricate details about some components they own, or used to own.
Just ask 'highfigh' right here, as well as some other members well informed on these idiosynchrasies.
Also it helps to be in the dealer/manufacturer relationship entourage.
And we also know much more today, than what we knew yesterday.

If some one would ask me a specific question that requires a reasonable simple answer, no sweat.
But I know well myself, and when I start to elaborate, I just cannot stop, if you know me a bit by now. I love details, accurate numbers with dates, references, data, and all the enchilada.
But sometimes, you just have to refrain yourself from going into dark (or very bright) territories.
I'll try to take life as simple as possible, and enjoy the present moment, and all that it has to offer.
That's my best motto to your question, at this time. :)

Sincerely,

Bob
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Mornin Bob.

I'm wondering if the OP actually was referring to QA flaws as a result of manufacturing as opposed to the implementation of a design that wasn't quite thought out properly like I beleive you are referring too?

I believe that it don't matter much if you purchase from online, like Audioholics, or from a speciality dealer, or a place like Accessories 4 less or 6th Avenue Electronics.

But, what I can say for sure is this: Since the days that I purchased audio electronic products (about over 40 years), I can honestly say that every manufacturer is always behind the curve, and that their products always have some flaws of one sort or another. I'm not talking about a defective or not reliable product, but about some type of implementation in their circuit boards, or DSPs, or codecs, or wrong components' values, or bass management, or volume levels, or channels' levels, delays, etc., or Dacs, or any type of implementation from parts to values related to improper total satisfactory perfection. It simply does not exists.

I can tell you all the flaws that I'm aware from all my audio and video components.

That's my take on this. But I'm overall very satisfied, because I do understand the various complexities and the business aspect, plus the speed of the times we live in right now, and also yesterday with the inferior technologies.

I can write a full thread about this, but I won't (not now anyway). :)

Bob
 
john72953

john72953

Full Audioholic
Let me chime in here, if I may.

Audio companies today are tripping all over themselves in trying to bring a product to market they feel is wanted by the consumer. How many times in the last year have you seen a product that is supposed to be the new equivalent of last years model be reduced in power output, just so more features could be incorporated. Most consumers, not those who are true audiophile enthusiasts, view this is an upgrade. Wow, I'm getting more features is the attitude. We are only a small percentage of their market, and our concerns are oftentimes not being considered. I'm speaking here of your basic consumer product, not the more specialized audio equipment manufacturers.

Secondly, most of us are into buying componants from various audio manufacturers. These manufacturers, however reliable they may be, do not and cannot test their new products with every conceivable competitors product out there for potential issues. Thereby, you will, at times, have issues matching certain componants to others. In fact, it is inevitable for this to occur at some point in your audio buying experience.

Third, and this is where some people get really bent out of shape, it does not mean that X company's product is crap because it doesn't (or doesn't easily) talk internally with another componant. It may be a natural human thing to do, but it is incorrect. Company X isn't necessarily crap, because it doesn't interact well with Company Y. I know this to be fact from personal experience and I still have both products in my system.

Lastly, most audio companies that we have utilized and have had personal expereince with do what they outlined in their product brochures. After extensive listening/auditioning (very important) they cannot be faulted for not interacting well or at all with other componants. That is our job to decipher!

John
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Secondly, most of us are into buying componants from various audio manufacturers. These manufacturers, however reliable they may be, do not and cannot test their new products with every conceivable competitors product out there for potential issues. Thereby, you will, at times, have issues matching certain componants to others. In fact, it is inevitable for this to occur at some point in your audio buying experience.

Third, and this is where some people get really bent out of shape, it does not mean that X company's product is crap because it doesn't (or doesn't easily) talk internally with another componant. It may be a natural human thing to do, but it is incorrect. Company X isn't necessarily crap, because it doesn't interact well with Company Y. I know this to be fact from personal experience and I still have both products in my system.

Lastly, most audio companies that we have utilized and have had personal expereince with do what they outlined in their product brochures. After extensive listening/auditioning (very important) they cannot be faulted for not interacting well or at all with other componants. That is our job to decipher!

John
However, if the IEEE, NAB or some other body sets standards for various connectivity characteristics, these manufacturers really should make their products compatible with the rest of the market. I'm not referring to preamp/power amps as much as sources, receivers, preamps and processors. Also, if something is marketed as balanced LowZ, it had better be just that and not some quasi-"I just created this in my laboratory and if needed, I'll prove that it works using charts, string and a note from my mother" kind of experiment that doesn't conform to the standard which was created specifically so equipment would be compatible, or at least so the engineers knew what they were dealing with and could design some kind of converter to make it compatible.

Some equipment throws off more or less RF, EMR and heat than others and this can be a source of problems when the shielding of one piece is fine when using their products but not when a stronger source is nearby.
 
P

popotoys

Audioholic
IMO

1. You will tell 12 people if something bad happens to you, but you will only tell a couple if something good happens.

2. I take everything with a grain of salt when it comes to information posted online.

3. If you read the forum's enough (not just here), you tend to get to know who actually posts credible information.

4. I guess it goes with #3 but there is no way to know if what someone is posting is honest and accurate as well.
 
john72953

john72953

Full Audioholic
However, if the IEEE, NAB or some other body sets standards for various connectivity characteristics, these manufacturers really should make their products compatible with the rest of the market. I'm not referring to preamp/power amps as much as sources, receivers, preamps and processors. Also, if something is marketed as balanced LowZ, it had better be just that and not some quasi-"I just created this in my laboratory and if needed, I'll prove that it works using charts, string and a note from my mother" kind of experiment that doesn't conform to the standard which was created specifically so equipment would be compatible, or at least so the engineers knew what they were dealing with and could design some kind of converter to make it compatible.

Some equipment throws off more or less RF, EMR and heat than others and this can be a source of problems when the shielding of one piece is fine when using their products but not when a stronger source is nearby.
I agree completely that such should be the case and I'm surprised that issues still arise. Let me give an example, to which I vagely eluded in my post.

I have a Yamaha HTR-6190B receiver. It's the equivalent of Yamaha's RV-X1800 unit (just marketed to different vendors). I also have an Oppo DV-980H DVD/DVD-A/ CD/SACD player. Both are considered to be fairly decent componants and I've yet to hear any complaints about their performance on a standalone basis. I researched the units before making their purchase, but I still ended up with compatibility issues. I don't view those issues as being a defect of either manufacturer.

Here is the problem I encountered. I have the Oppo connected via HDMI and Analog through my Yammy 6190. Both the Yammy and the Oppo handle HDMI>DSD for SACD playback (I confirmed this with both manfacturers). The problem is this....I cannot play back-to-back SACD while using the HDMI>DSD option. I have to shut down the Oppo, restart it and then play another SACD. There are no issues when any other choice is selected.

I emailed both Oppo and Yamaha and one blamed the other and the other was unaware of the issue and washed their hands.

I come back to my original point however, and that is that both units are wonderful componants and I'm happy they are a part of my system, despite the apparent handshake or incompatibility issues. I have found a way aroud it, although annoying, but I still enjoy the music I get from their playback.

John
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I agree completely that such should be the case and I'm surprised that issues still arise. Let me give an example, to which I vagely eluded in my post.

I have a Yamaha HTR-6190B receiver. It's the equivalent of Yamaha's RV-X1800 unit (just marketed to different vendors). I also have an Oppo DV-980H DVD/DVD-A/ CD/SACD player. Both are considered to be fairly decent componants and I've yet to hear any complaints about their performance on a standalone basis. I researched the units before making their purchase, but I still ended up with compatibility issues. I don't view those issues as being a defect of either manufacturer.

Here is the problem I encountered. I have the Oppo connected via HDMI and Analog through my Yammy 6190. Both the Yammy and the Oppo handle HDMI>DSD for SACD playback (I confirmed this with both manfacturers). The problem is this....I cannot play back-to-back SACD while using the HDMI>DSD option. I have to shut down the Oppo, restart it and then play another SACD. There are no issues when any other choice is selected.

I emailed both Oppo and Yamaha and one blamed the other and the other was unaware of the issue and washed their hands.

I come back to my original point however, and that is that both units are wonderful componants and I'm happy they are a part of my system, despite the apparent handshake or incompatibility issues. I have found a way aroud it, although annoying, but I still enjoy the music I get from their playback.

John
It sounds like a data synch issue and this kind of thing is why I don't like HDMI or any cable that tries to be all things to all devices.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Shortchanged quality assurance is a rampant problem in software.

Most of the problem is a lot of software is hacked rather than engineered. Well designed software will be easier to test, fix and maintain. This is because design reviews take far less tim than code reviews. and Code reviews take less time than find bugs than after the fact.

This was demonstrated to me with real measured data in our software engineering program.

When things are well engineered they work extremely well. When they are poorly engineered they break. That's a fact of life.

Your always best going with a reliable company because of this fact.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
Shortchanged quality assurance is a rampant problem in software.

Most of the problem is a lot of software is hacked rather than engineered. Well designed software will be easier to test, fix and maintain. This is because design reviews take far less tim than code reviews. and Code reviews take less time than find bugs than after the fact.

This was demonstrated to me with real measured data in our software engineering program.

When things are well engineered they work extremely well. When they are poorly engineered they break. That's a fact of life.

Your always best going with a reliable company because of this fact.
Would I be correct in thinking that this is why we have so many firmware updates with receivers.
 
anamorphic96

anamorphic96

Audioholic General
LOL. Anamorphic, it would take a big chunk of my time to do a proper elaboration, based on my personal experience, trust me, I ain't kidding.
I would llove too though, as I know that it would create an excellent discussion thread, from many people here, and at large.

Many of these discoveries came from very dedicated research from years and several sources, all added together. I'm sure some people would be very surprise to learn some intricate details about some components they own, or used to own.
Just ask 'highfigh' right here, as well as some other members well informed on these idiosynchrasies.
Also it helps to be in the dealer/manufacturer relationship entourage.
And we also know much more today, than what we knew yesterday.

If some one would ask me a specific question that requires a reasonable simple answer, no sweat.
But I know well myself, and when I start to elaborate, I just cannot stop, if you know me a bit by now. I love details, accurate numbers with dates, references, data, and all the enchilada.
But sometimes, you just have to refrain yourself from going into dark (or very bright) territories.
I'll try to take life as simple as possible, and enjoy the present moment, and all that it has to offer.
That's my best motto to your question, at this time. :)

Sincerely,

Bob
What are a few of the disturbing things you have learned about the industry. Receivers in general if possible.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Most of the problem is a lot of software is hacked rather than engineered. Well designed software will be easier to test, fix and maintain. This is because design reviews take far less tim than code reviews. and Code reviews take less time than find bugs than after the fact.
Those are all nice principles that often break down in real development.

Not all features and/or potential bugs can be avoided in a 'design' review and code reviews are almost worthless. If you've ever worked on an open source project with lots of different programmers with different backgrounds from different companies, different skill levels, and objectives you'd know firsthand what I mean. Code reviews devolve into trivial crap about naming variables, spaces vs tabs, brackets on the opening line of statement or function vs on the next line, and on and on... They almost NEVER catch truly insidious bugs because software is so complex that a lot of times you have to have a reproducible problem and debug it - not look at the static code.

Consider also that projects are so large and complex today that nobody ever writes the entire 'system' from soup to nuts. You rely on packages from all over the place and their 'design' didn't necessarily take into account how you need to use it or provide the number and types of interfaces you need to hook it up to your code. Hence the need for inelegant coding tricks, aka hacks.
 
john72953

john72953

Full Audioholic
I think this thread is going from incompatibility issues to software design that may or may not have an impact or relevancy to the original post.

There is no doubt that software plays a huge part in todays audiophile componant market....maybe that is the problem!:(

Long live analog! :D

John
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Mornin Bob.

I'm wondering if the OP actually was referring to QA flaws as a result of manufacturing as opposed to the implementation of a design that wasn't quite thought out properly like I beleive you are referring too?
Both are quite close related, would you say? :)

* Sorry, but this morning at that time, I was still sleeping. :)
There's been a small change in my hours' habits and sleep too.

*** And a major change is coming very soon. I am going away for few months, in the middle of the Wilderness; for the attempt of serious mountains climbing, in the roughest parts of the Himalayas.
So, that's one of the main reason for the change of hours, I've got to get in great physical and mental shape. Where I'm going, it's a matter of life and death.
No second guess up there; or it's higher up, or it's down.

And I don't think that I will be bringing a solar powered laptop, up there. :)
But then, you never know... ;) I might be crazy enough to.

Nice seing you 3db. And by the way, you are on my best buddy's list. :)

Have a good one,
Bob
 
Last edited:
Laradigm

Laradigm

Audiophyte
Denon AVR-590

Newbie to forum but not to the hobby. Please don't automatically discount my post(s) for having only now discovered this fine forum.
Just a quick one of my first impression of 'stepping down' to surround sound(from 2-Channel Seperates). While shopping my local Electronics Superstore for a couple of new Blu-Rays, I went to the Audio/Video dept. To see what was new in affordable avr receivers. While surrounded by blue and yellow, I was pleasantly surprised to find the Denon AVR-590 for $333.00. I was impressed with it's heft, HD Audio support and binding posts for all channels. I took it home to give it a try. Wow. Not an easy setup, and I am used to setting up systems. My own and all of my friends'. Even at the low price point, the onscreen menu was laughable. It reminds me of pong! I used the supplied mic. for the Audyssey Auto Setup which did a fine job sizing and spacing my speakers and recognizing the lack of a subwoofer, but having full range front speakers and distributing the LFE channel to the fronts(I think). First movie, Iron Man(blu Ray), things were going well, sounding good, looking good until the first 'dynamic' scene when things got a bit loud and the Denon shut down. I was surprised, as my old stereo amp was rated at 100wpc(high current, though). Waiting a nervous ten minutes, I turned everything back on an all was fine. I do have to thank the Denon for likely saving my speakers which were obviously asking for more than it could give and could have been damaged as I was reaching for the remote. The sad thing is that I had previously listenen much louder with my old amp without the slightest problem ever. No, I did not expect miracles from a 75wpc, $300 receiver, but I did expect more than I got.
Yes, I did break the receiver in.
Unfortunately, I cannot afford surround sound seperates, so I will end up compromising no matter what I do. I don't know if a sub would help by taking the LFE away from the amp, but I was trying to avoid one.
I DO believe the Denon will work for most people in most circumstances and may end up working for me. But, I will miss my Adcom untill I find some speakers and a spot to listen.

Cheers,
Lar
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not sure how your post relates to QC.

First movie, Iron Man(blu Ray), things were going well, sounding good, looking good until the first 'dynamic' scene when things got a bit loud and the Denon shut down.
You should be attempting to determine "why". Do you have a whisker short? Is there a problem with Ohm load? Is there a QC problem with your Denon?

It would be useful if, in this story, you told us what speakers you were using and what your old amp was. As I understand it, this was in surround and you had not run surround before? If so, what about your center and rears as the potential source of the problem.

Yes, I did break the receiver in.
I cannot imagine what that could accomplish.

Unfortunately, I cannot afford surround sound seperates, so I will end up compromising no matter what I do. I don't know if a sub would help by taking the LFE away from the amp, but I was trying to avoid one.
Sounds like the wrong solution.

I DO believe the Denon will work for most people in most circumstances and may end up working for me. But, I will miss my Adcom untill I find some speakers and a spot to listen.
Simple: plug your DVR out into your Adcom in (and move your fronts to your Adcom) and you are effectively using the Denon as a preamp.

Though I'm honestly confused. How many speakers are you running? If you are running two, why did you get the Denon? What was wrong with the old setup?

Cheers,
Lar[/QUOTE]
 

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