Receiver and speakers around 1K

[constantin82]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post to this forum, I've being reading up a lot in prep for buying what will be my second music system. My first setup is a Denon receiver driving a pair of Jamo X3M 8s. I don't remember the receiver model off-hand. The room where I'll be setting this up is about 18x12.

I'm primarily in the market for a music system. I wouldn't call myself an audiophile but I can certainly appreciate a quality setup. I'd originally planned to get a 2.1ch receiver since I wasn't planning to hook up a home theatre system to it. After some research it seems to make more sense to go with a multi-channel AV receiver rather than a stereo one. It gives me more options going forward even though I'm not in the market for 5.1+ channels at the moment. Is this a fair conclusion?

Ideally I'd like to spend about $350-450 on a receiver and $600 on a pair of compact speakers that I could place on a stand or on a bookshelf. My plan is to decide on the receiver first and then pair a good set of speakers with it.

I've done a bit of reading and scouring of the internets and the current candidates for a receiver are:
1. Denon AVR-1909
2. Yamaha RX-V665
3. Onkyo SR-606/607

What do you think? Is this a fair set to consider given my budget? I'm leaning towards the Denon receiver. I'm also curious about how these units do for music. Most of the reviews I read evaluated audio performance while watching movies and mentioned music as an aside. I'm not all that into squealing tires and exploding trucks. I'd much rather hear the individual strings of a guitar and a nice clear soundstage. Other considerations are longevity (I'd like to keep this system for about 5 years by adding to it), the possibility of upgrading to an external amplifier in the future and aesthetics (relatively minor concern)

If it helps, the majority of the input will come from lossless digital music via a squeezebox duet plugged into a DAC. I'd appreciate any experience or guidance you might have to share or even pointers to informative articles to read.

Thanks in advance.

 

[constantin82]

Another update: The Denon AVR-1609 seems like a compelling addition to the pack, though it has fewer HDMI inputs.

 

[captiankirk28]

Hi it sounds like you are on the right track but i would suggest buying your speakers first and than we could help you decide on what reciver to go with.

 

[Matt34]

I don't think the Denon or Onkyo models you listed have pre-outs so if you do decided on an external amplifier later on you'll have to get another AVR.

Bookshelf speakers to consider:

1. Behringer 2030p (professional studio monitors)
2. Yamaha NS-333 (read the 2009 bookshelf speaker shootout)
3. Acsend 170se
4. Infinity Primus 162


Pair them with any of these subs:

1. Dayton SUB-120 $155
2. Premier Acoustics PA-120 $229
3. Cadence CSX-12 $279 (I think)
4. BIC H-100 $250

 

[constantin82]

Hi it sounds like you are on the right track but i would suggest buying your speakers first and than we could help you decide on what reciver to go with.

Could you explain why you suggest buying speakers first? I've always heard you should go from the source to your ears when buying a sound system.

 

[Matt34]

Could you explain why you suggest buying speakers first? I've always heard you should go from the source to your ears when buying a sound system.

It depends on the Ohm rating/efficency of the speakers. If you get a 4 ohm speaker and try to power it with a receiver that is not rated to handle it you will run the risk of damaging the speakers. With your speaker budget you shouldn't run into this problem as most of the bookshelfs in the price range are easy to run.

 

[constantin82]

I don't think the Denon or Onkyo models you listed have pre-outs so if you do decided on an external amplifier later on you'll have to get another AVR.

You're right, the Denon models only have pre-outs for a sub. Any suggestions for receivers that have pre-outs?

Bookshelf speakers to consider:

1. Behringer 2030p (professional studio monitors)
2. Yamaha NS-333 (read the 2009 bookshelf speaker shootout)
3. Acsend 170se
4. Infinity Primus 162


Pair them with any of these subs:

1. Dayton SUB-120 $155
2. Premier Acoustics PA-120 $229
3. Cadence CSX-12 $279 (I think)
4. BIC H-100 $250

Thanks for the speaker suggestions -- I'll start reading up on them.

 

[Matt34]

You're right, the Denon models only have pre-outs for a sub. Any suggestions for receivers that have pre-outs?



Thanks for the speaker suggestions -- I'll start reading up on them.

I have last years model of the Yamaha RX-665 and it does fine as a receiver/pre. I think the 665 has an extra HDMI input compared to the 663.

 

[lsiberian]

Could you explain why you suggest buying speakers first? I've always heard you should go from the source to your ears when buying a sound system.

You heard wrong. Empirical evidence shows the speaker first approach is best because speakers make the greatest difference in sound production. Second is the room. For a source you only need one that provides the signal.

On your budget I suggest you consider a low cost receiver paired with high quality speakers. 3 sets of Behringer 2030p monitors and a single Dayton 12" sub would only cost around 600 dollars paired with a nice receiver you could easily come in under budget.

The Behringer 2030p's have excellent sound quality that you won't find in most other speakers in this budget range.

If you need smaller surrounds then I suggest getting some KEF speakers off ebay. They have egg shaped ones that make great surrounds.

If you demand a center design than a Beta front sounds stage would be and excellent choice.

 

[Lordoftherings]

<<< Onkyo THX Home Theater System.>>>

Hi Constantin,

Welcome to Audioholics.
I thought you might be interested by this, the full "Shawbang" in your price range.

* http://hometheatermag.com/hometheaterinabox/onkyo_ht-s9100thx_integrated_system/

>> Street price is much less, of course, so you'll still have money for the sub.

~ By the way, the Denon AVR-1909 is a very nice receiver (better than the Yamaha RX-V665). But the Onkyo TX-SR606 (only $320, Factory Reconditioned) is also a very nice alternative.
* TX-SR606 review: http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/808onk/
* TX-SR606 price: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR606/Onkyo/TX-SR606-90w-x-7ch-HDMI-Theater-Receiver-BLACK/1.html

And finally, about this one:
* Onkyo TX-SR607 review:http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/onkyo_tx-sr607_av_receiver/

Another nice alternative is the Marantz SR4003 for $350 (Marantz Certified Refurbished).
* SR4003 price: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR4003/Marantz/SR4003-Dolby-Digital-EX/DTS-ES-Surround-Receiver-/1.html
-> Just scroll down a bit.
& Also the Marantz SR4002 is only $300 at the same place.
& And the Marantz SR5002 is only $350, again same place.
& Finally the Marantz SR6001 is also only $350 (same place).

Cheers,

Bob

Note: The Onkyo TX-SR607 can be had for only $350 (6th Ave Price Alert).
** Oh, and forget about preouts, you don't need those (Marantz SR4003 does have them though).

 

[constantin82]

lsiberian: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Ultimately though I think any system can only sound as good as it's weakest component. Sure quality speakers can make a big difference in sound, but a faithful reproduction of garbage coming out of a crappy receiver isn't worth much. I guess the reverse is true as well.

lotr: Thanks for the welcome and the links. The full system might have been interesting, but I'm not looking for a full HT right now (more below). What's the warranty like with the refurbed systems? Is it the full original warranty from the manufacturer? Any places which sell Denon refurbs? If you can't tell already, I'm a little sweet on Denon, having owned and liked one of their receivers in the past.

I guess I wasn't really very clear with my original post. While I decided to go for a full blown A/V receiver, I'm planning on a 2.1 setup initially. It seemed a wiser choice to get a full receiver and add more to it over the next few years. For now, I'd like to start with a pair of hi-fi speakers.

Some models I've been looking at are
1. B&W DM 602 S3 series (are these still on the market?)
2. RBH MC series
3. Ascend acoustics CMT-340, and
4. Monitor Audio Bronze BR2
Edit: 5. Energy RC-10

These sets run about $300-$500, which should leave me with some left over a reasonable sub and stands.

Okay, now you can rip it to shreds.

 

[Matt34]

lsiberian: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Ultimately though I think any system can only sound as good as it's weakest component. Sure quality speakers can make a big difference in sound, but a faithful reproduction of garbage coming out of a crappy receiver isn't worth much. I guess the reverse is true as well.

lotr: Thanks for the welcome and the links. The full system might have been interesting, but I'm not looking for a full HT right now (more below). What's the warranty like with the refurbed systems? Is it the full original warranty from the manufacturer? Any places which sell Denon refurbs? If you can't tell already, I'm a little sweet on Denon, having owned and liked one of their receivers in the past.

I guess I wasn't really very clear with my original post. While I decided to go for a full blown A/V receiver, I'm planning on a 2.1 setup initially. It seemed a wiser choice to get a full receiver and add more to it over the next few years. For now, I'd like to start with a pair of hi-fi speakers.

Some models I've been looking at are
1. B&W DM 602 S3 series (are these still on the market?)
2. RBH MC series
3. Ascend acoustics CMT-340, and
4. Monitor Audio Bronze BR2
Edit: 5. Energy RC-10

These sets run about $300-$500, which should leave me with some left over a reasonable sub and stands.

Okay, now you can rip it to shreds.

All the mid-fi/low-fi receivers are going to sound the same, get the one that has the features your after.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Hi Constantin,

If you look at the links that I already give you, it says that it comes with a full year warranty (all refurbs), duh (if only you read it).
Refurbs from accessories 4 less or 6th Ave are excellent, no problems there.

If you buy a new Marantz receiver, it comes with a three year warranty, Onkyo, two years warranty...

Denon Receiver with B&W speakers, no way Jose.
Go for a Rotel power amplifier plus a pre/pro, or use the Denon Receiver as the pre/pro, but you have to get the AVR-2809ci (or AVR-2808ci) with preouts. Or get an Emotiva XPA-2.

* Good quality speakers required good quality amplification, duh.

 

[constantin82]

Hi Constantin,

Denon Receiver with B&W speakers, no way Jose.
Go for a Rotel power amplifier plus a pre/pro, or use the Denon Receiver as the pre/pro, but you have to get the AVR-2809ci (or AVR-2808ci) with preouts. Or get an Emotiva XPA-2.

* Good quality speakers required good quality amplification, duh.

Ok, I'm quite out of my depth here. Could you elaborate on that please? From what I have read, I believed the receivers I listed were good quality. Obviously I was wrong there. So now I have a bunch of questions, all possibly related. What am I missing about these receivers? Is buying a 7.1, THx certified (blah, blah blah) receiver simply paying for features and standards but not high quality? How does a pre/pro amp improve over the receivers I listed? What does the Emotiva offer? Should I reconsider a stereo amplifier/receiver?

These aren't combative questions. I'm very interested in learning more so I can make an educated choice. 1000$ for a pair of speakers and a receiver isn't something to throw around -- not for me at least

Very confused now.

 

[Matt34]

Ok, I'm quite out of my depth here. Could you elaborate on that please? From what I have read, I believed the receivers I listed were good quality. Obviously I was wrong there. So now I have a bunch of questions, all possibly related. What am I missing about these receivers? Is buying a 7.1, THx certified (blah, blah blah) receiver simply paying for features and standards but not high quality? How does a pre/pro amp improve over the receivers I listed? What does the Emotiva offer? Should I reconsider a stereo amplifier/receiver?

These aren't combative questions. I'm very interested in learning more so I can make an educated choice. 1000$ for a pair of speakers and a receiver isn't something to throw around -- not for me at least

Very confused now.

Bottom line, speakers are the most important thing. Once you find the ones you like, everything else should be based on wants and features. The receivers you've listed are of good quality and if biases are removed from the equation you won't hear a difference.

 

[constantin82]

Price ratios

Ok I'll start listening to speakers next. Quick question, how should I divide up my $1000 budget between speakers and receiver? 40-60, 50-50, 60-40, 70-30? A rough estimate will help me figure out what to consider seriously. I know higher price doesn't automatically mean better performance, but it's the best proxy I have.

Thanks for helping me out everyone.

 

[Matt34]

Ok I'll start listening to speakers next. Quick question, how should I divide up my $1000 budget between speakers and receiver? 40-60, 50-50, 60-40, 70-30? A rough estimate will help me figure out what to consider seriously. I know higher price doesn't automatically mean better performance, but it's the best proxy I have.

Thanks for helping me out everyone.

40-60 receiver/speakers.

 

[Lordoftherings]

My fault, sorry Constantin. Please forgive me.

Ok, I'm quite out of my depth here. Could you elaborate on that please? From what I have read, I believed the receivers I listed were good quality. Obviously I was wrong there. So now I have a bunch of questions, all possibly related. What am I missing about these receivers? Is buying a 7.1, THx certified (blah, blah blah) receiver simply paying for features and standards but not high quality? How does a pre/pro amp improve over the receivers I listed? What does the Emotiva offer? Should I reconsider a stereo amplifier/receiver?

These aren't combative questions. I'm very interested in learning more so I can make an educated choice. 1000$ for a pair of speakers and a receiver isn't something to throw around -- not for me at least

Very confused now.

Sorry Constantin, without knowing your speakers first, I got lost in translation.
My mistake. So, for the best receiver without speakers, I will choose..., wait a minute, is this a trick question?
Just kidding, pick the Denon AVR-1909, with Audyssey MultEQ, Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Audyssey Dynamic EQ. That's the one I'll pick (without speakers first ).

No, I really mean it, the Denon is solid with a very good set of features that are very desirable. It's a great choice, 100% certain.

Ok I'll start listening to speakers next. Quick question, how should I divide up my $1000 budget between speakers and receiver? 40-60, 50-50, 60-40, 70-30? A rough estimate will help me figure out what to consider seriously. I know higher price doesn't automatically mean better performance, but it's the best proxy I have.

Thanks for helping me out everyone.

If the Denon AVR-1909 cost you let's say $400 more or less, put about $800 towards the speakers (or more).

*** But with your budget of 1k, you are just fine as it is, get that nice Denon AVR-1909 A/V Receiver, and get some nice speakers that normally retails at $1,200 for half price or $600.

You are now all set and ready to go shopping for those speakers.

* By the way Constantin, all the speakers you previously mentioned are all excellent choices. And they will perfectly match that Denon 1909 receiver.
I'm sorry again for the confusion that I did bring upon your head.
It was not my intention, but my own confusion (lost in translation...).

Best regards & sincerely,

Bob

 

[Lordoftherings]

This is my first post to this forum, I've being reading

You are now at 9, according to your top right number.

I've been reading a lot too.

* And as long as we learn something from it.

 

[constantin82]

Demoed B&W 685s

*** But with your budget of 1k, you are just fine as it is, get that nice Denon AVR-1909 A/V Receiver, and get some nice speakers that normally retails at $1,200 for half price or $600.

You are now all set and ready to go shopping for those speakers.

Thanks Bob.

I demoed the B&W 685 today (the 602s aren't really in production any longer) and I was quite impressed. Here's a short description. To my ear, the mid ranges were very clear. The soundstage was detailed and had a lot of depth. I could hear when an instrument was behind another. The sound was beautifully distributed. It true that this was an engineered listening room, but I could not localize the sound at either speaker; it filled the room. The high range was also impressive -- I had Joan Baez singing "It's all over now baby blue" and it sounded rich, no harshness at all. Finally, these speakers produce a very solid sound, not wimpy at all. Ali Farka Toure singing Ai Du sounded great, his voice ever so throaty. This by the way was driven by a Denon 397 receiver. I also got to hear a pair of the CM-1s (off a $4K McIntosh integrated amp). They sounded richer, but at $500 a pop I think it would severely bust my budget. Overall, the 685 are a good reference point to start the search.

I'm planning to demo the Paradigm Studio 20s next. I'll post my thoughts after I hear them.

Does anyone know if there a Monitor Audio dealer in the SF bay area? I have been looking to demo the Bronze BR2 but so far no luck with google or their website.