Receiver advice for a cheapskate audio snob?

[wlmmn]

Hi fellow audioholics, newbie to the forums, but have been somewhat of an audiophile for years, also worked as an audio engineer for a few years professionally.

I'm looking for some advice on getting a new receiver.

Here's the situation: I'm the type of guy that only has uncompressed wav files on my iPod that are ripped straight off the CD; I'm quite partial to audio resolution and don't like how video resolution seems to keep going up and up with HDTV but audio resolution keeps going down and down. But I digress...

Currently I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-41 I bought 6 years ago; it's nice but it doesn't have HDMI. Also it sounds to me like it processes the sound undesirably. I have a PS3 that doubles as my Blu-Ray player (I know, I know, it was a Christmas present and I'm cheap) and have to go out of my PS3 via Digital Optical out and would like to take full advantage of the uncompressed audio of Blu-Ray. I have B&W speakers all around for my 5.1 system, except for the subwoofer which is an active Infinity sub. To supplement the Pioneer receiver, I have an old 80s Hafler preamp that powers the rears separately. Want I want out of a receiver is something that has HDMI, obviously, but one that has very nice d/a conversion and is powerful enough to hopefully take the place of the Hafler preamp so I can just sell that.

I'm not big into 5 billion features in a receiver; give me good 'ol build quality and power. I cringe when I hear about cheap EQ circuitry in a receiver being passed off as “corrective”- I want a clean signal that's not processed by cheap circuitry (anyone that's worked in a recording studio knows it takes very, very expensive separate EQ equipment to actually eq something right without degrading the quality of the signal as it comes out, something that a $700 receiver isn't likely to have built into it).

I've been thinking about Rotel receivers, but geez they're expensive! My budget is under $1,000- doesn't necessarily have to be brand new, it just needs to have HDMI, clean d/a conversion, powerful, and all the nice surround sound decoders.

Any recommendations on brands? Out-of-production HDMI-capable Rotel models that might be cheaper now? Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[sholling]

I really like my 51lb Onkyo TX-NR906 for it's reserve power and once in a while you'll see refurbs for about $1,200 unfortunately Accessories For Less is out for now. These have a pure direct mode to shutdown all processing. The only thing I use any processing on is movies. I refuse to process music.

Another choice would be a refurbished TX-NR1007.

What you might also consider if you want some serious power is a refurbished TX-SR707 (~$500) and use to left, right and center preouts to connect to an Emotvia XPA-3 and let the receiver's amp handle the surrounds. I've been drooling over the $600 XPA-3 but I'm not sure my home's circuits are up to the job. The Onkyo claims the 707 also has a pure/direct mode.

BTW there is nothing wrong with using a PS3 as your Blu-Ray player - it's one of the best.

 

[Cristofori]

Hi fellow audioholics, newbie to the forums, but have been somewhat of an audiophile for years, also worked as an audio engineer for a few years professionally.

I'm looking for some advice on getting a new receiver.

Here's the situation: I'm the type of guy that only has uncompressed wav files on my iPod that are ripped straight off the CD; I'm quite partial to audio resolution and don't like how video resolution seems to keep going up and up with HDTV but audio resolution keeps going down and down. But I digress...

Currently I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-41 I bought 6 years ago; it's nice but it doesn't have HDMI. Also it sounds to me like it processes the sound undesirably. I have a PS3 that doubles as my Blu-Ray player (I know, I know, it was a Christmas present and I'm cheap) and have to go out of my PS3 via Digital Optical out and would like to take full advantage of the uncompressed audio of Blu-Ray. I have B&W speakers all around for my 5.1 system, except for the subwoofer which is an active Infinity sub. To supplement the Pioneer receiver, I have an old 80s Hafler preamp that powers the rears separately. Want I want out of a receiver is something that has HDMI, obviously, but one that has very nice d/a conversion and is powerful enough to hopefully take the place of the Hafler preamp so I can just sell that.

I'm not big into 5 billion features in a receiver; give me good 'ol build quality and power. I cringe when I hear about cheap EQ circuitry in a receiver being passed off as “corrective”- I want a clean signal that's not processed by cheap circuitry (anyone that's worked in a recording studio knows it takes very, very expensive separate EQ equipment to actually eq something right without degrading the quality of the signal as it comes out, something that a $700 receiver isn't likely to have built into it).

I've been thinking about Rotel receivers, but geez they're expensive! My budget is under $1,000- doesn't necessarily have to be brand new, it just needs to have HDMI, clean d/a conversion, powerful, and all the nice surround sound decoders.

Any recommendations on brands? Out-of-production HDMI-capable Rotel models that might be cheaper now? Thanks in advance for any insight.

Check out some of the Marantz receivers, which still have a healthy respect for the audio end of the spectrum and one of the best warranties in the business.

Also, whatever you buy, make sure it has a simple Tone Defeat/Bypass switch for 2-channel music listening!

 

[anamorphic96]

Try looking at the NAD T737 and T747. Both do what you need. NAD has also been a music first company in many ways. The T737 just had a price reduction to 599.

You might also want to check out this article. When they compared the lossless versions to the full bitrate versions of the DD and DTS codecs there was very little difference. Most people would not even be able to here the differences in controlled blind tests.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM

Another thing I'm confused about with your post is you keep referring to the Hafler as a pre-amp. Shouldn't it be an amplfier if its driving speakers. Pre-amps can't drive speakers.

 

[adwilk]

I personally wouldn't "waste" (harsh word) my money on the likes of Rotel, NAD, or other higher end brands. The likes of Denon, Yammy, Onkyo and Marantz will easily do what you want without extra coin for a name. I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger on the Marantz 6004. Its got all the bells and whistles, a great/smart layout and I've been incredibly happy with my Marantz gear. The onkyos listed above would be great options as well. In the price point you're at, you honestly won't hear a difference in the DACs.

 

[wlmmn]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies so far; they've all helped. I don't know why I didn't even think about Marantz; I've become familiar with their CD players on the job. I just checked local Marantz dealers around here (Denver, CO) and I might just compare in person tomorrow to celebrate my first spring break day.

@anamorphic96: Whoops, sorry, yeah it's just an amp. Basically I was just trying to say that the Hafler is an amp by itself that takes some of the load off of the Pioneer receiver's amp to power the surrounds. I'm used to recording terminology where a preamp is a separate component that sends power to a microphone, and I just mixed the two worlds together.

 

[yepimonfire]

I personally wouldn't "waste" (harsh word) my money on the likes of Rotel, NAD, or other higher end brands. The likes of Denon, Yammy, Onkyo and Marantz will easily do what you want without extra coin for a name. I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger on the Marantz 6004. Its got all the bells and whistles, a great/smart layout and I've been incredibly happy with my Marantz gear. The onkyos listed above would be great options as well. In the price point you're at, you honestly won't hear a difference in the DACs.

i love marantz, they can seriously pump some power.

Just my opinion.

 

[adwilk]

Hey, OP... If you're seriously considering Marantz, check these guys out. Great service, great pricing.

Edit: They've got some killer deals on Onkyo as well. The 807 seems like a very capable device. I've been torn for a while.

 

[wlmmn]

Hmmm.......there's a used Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH on Amazon for less than $500. Marantz is a truer audio brand though, as others have said.

 

[anamorphic96]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies so far; they've all helped. I don't know why I didn't even think about Marantz; I've become familiar with their CD players on the job. I just checked local Marantz dealers around here (Denver, CO) and I might just compare in person tomorrow to celebrate my first spring break day.

@anamorphic96: Whoops, sorry, yeah it's just an amp. Basically I was just trying to say that the Hafler is an amp by itself that takes some of the load off of the Pioneer receiver's amp to power the surrounds. I'm used to recording terminology where a preamp is a separate component that sends power to a microphone, and I just mixed the two worlds together.

I figured you meant amp. but figured I would clarify. What Hafler amp is it that your using. They make some nice gear.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Try looking at the NAD T737 and T747. Both do what you need. NAD has also been a music first company in many ways. The T737 just had a price reduction to 599.

You might also want to check out this article. When they compared the lossless versions to the full bitrate versions of the DD and DTS codecs there was very little difference. Most people would not even be able to here the differences in controlled blind tests.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM

Another thing I'm confused about with your post is you keep referring to the Hafler as a pre-amp. Shouldn't it be an amplfier if its driving speakers. Pre-amps can't drive speakers.

Thanks for the link! What an interesting (and revealing) article!

 

[3db]

I personally wouldn't "waste" (harsh word) my money on the likes of Rotel, NAD, or other higher end brands. The likes of Denon, Yammy, Onkyo and Marantz will easily do what you want without extra coin for a name. I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger on the Marantz 6004. Its got all the bells and whistles, a great/smart layout and I've been incredibly happy with my Marantz gear. The onkyos listed above would be great options as well. In the price point you're at, you honestly won't hear a difference in the DACs.

Waste is a harsh word. Denon and Yamaha have gone on downward spiral as far as cheapening their amplifier capabilities but maintaining an up to date feature list. NAD has always been slow to incorporate the latest technonolgies but are as up to date now as any of the others now. And NAD is 4 ohm stable and stands behind its warranty where others recommend against 4 ohm loads.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi fellow audioholics, newbie to the forums, but have been somewhat of an audiophile for years, also worked as an audio engineer for a few years professionally.

I'm looking for some advice on getting a new receiver.

Here's the situation: I'm the type of guy that only has uncompressed wav files on my iPod that are ripped straight off the CD; I'm quite partial to audio resolution and don't like how video resolution seems to keep going up and up with HDTV but audio resolution keeps going down and down. But I digress...

Currently I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-41 I bought 6 years ago; it's nice but it doesn't have HDMI. Also it sounds to me like it processes the sound undesirably. I have a PS3 that doubles as my Blu-Ray player (I know, I know, it was a Christmas present and I'm cheap) and have to go out of my PS3 via Digital Optical out and would like to take full advantage of the uncompressed audio of Blu-Ray. I have B&W speakers all around for my 5.1 system, except for the subwoofer which is an active Infinity sub. To supplement the Pioneer receiver, I have an old 80s Hafler preamp that powers the rears separately. Want I want out of a receiver is something that has HDMI, obviously, but one that has very nice d/a conversion and is powerful enough to hopefully take the place of the Hafler preamp so I can just sell that.

I'm not big into 5 billion features in a receiver; give me good 'ol build quality and power. I cringe when I hear about cheap EQ circuitry in a receiver being passed off as “corrective”- I want a clean signal that's not processed by cheap circuitry (anyone that's worked in a recording studio knows it takes very, very expensive separate EQ equipment to actually eq something right without degrading the quality of the signal as it comes out, something that a $700 receiver isn't likely to have built into it).

I've been thinking about Rotel receivers, but geez they're expensive! My budget is under $1,000- doesn't necessarily have to be brand new, it just needs to have HDMI, clean d/a conversion, powerful, and all the nice surround sound decoders.

Any recommendations on brands? Out-of-production HDMI-capable Rotel models that might be cheaper now? Thanks in advance for any insight.

The trouble is cheaper receivers sacrifice bells and whistles for core functions, like decent power amps.

I would look at the Marantz line, or buy a receiver that does what you want with preouts, and buy decent power amplification.

I think you will have to up your budget a lot, if you are as discerning as you maintain.

 

[wlmmn]

I figured you meant amp. but figured I would clarify. What Hafler amp is it that your using. They make some nice gear.

It's their TransNova P3000. It's great, but it only allows for balanced 1/4-inch inputs, so I had to use a rca-to-1/4" adapter to plug into the Hafler from the unbalanced, RCA preouts on the Pioneer. So basically I'm putting an unbalanced connection into the balanced inputs; not ideal, but don't have a choice.

 

[adwilk]

Waste is a harsh word. Denon and Yamaha have gone on downward spiral as far as cheapening their amplifier capabilities but maintaining an up to date feature list. NAD has always been slow to incorporate the latest technonolgies but are as up to date now as any of the others now. And NAD is 4 ohm stable and stands behind its warranty where others recommend against 4 ohm loads.

The really inexpensive stuff put out by Denon, Yammy, HK, Onkyo,etc really only have themselves to compete with. If you buy a 300 dollar receiver new, there should be certain expectations/limitations. If you buy a 1000 dollar receiver, then you easily level the playing field with NAD, ROTEL and the like. Do those guys even make a sub 300 dollar unit new? PENG posted some great info regarding the topic, I'll see what I can find.

 

[3db]

The really inexpensive stuff put out by Denon, Yammy, HK, Onkyo,etc really only have themselves to compete with. If you buy a 300 dollar receiver new, there should be certain expectations/limitations. If you buy a 1000 dollar receiver, then you easily level the playing field with NAD, ROTEL and the like. Do those guys even make a sub 300 dollar unit new? PENG posted some great info regarding the topic, I'll see what I can find.

Not true. The power delivery of the new Yamaha RX-V1065 is dismal at best and I'm talking its power delivery into two channels only. (let alone 5 or 7 channels which could be affected by a safety circuitry)

If I had to choose between my old Yamaha RX-V1800 and the feautre laiden RX-V1065, I'd choose the 1800 over the 1065 becuase the 1800 comes a lot closer to doubling its output power compared to that of the RX-V1065 into 4 ohms. The RX-V series is about features now and not powersupply/amplification capabilities.

 

[Seth=L]

The Yamaha RX-V1065 does not count, it's still got that "I'm sold at Best Buy" feel. The RX-V1800 and RX-V3800 on the other hand, those are hefty receivers.

And as far as Denon is concerned, there's nothing wrong with their lower, middle, and upper end receivers in terms of the amp sections IMO. That said, you can't really go wrong with an upper end model.

Marantz seems to offer consistantly good models in all price ranges as well. And at A4Less they are hard to beat.

 

[wlmmn]

Well guys, I ended up pulling the trigger on the Marantz SR6003- yup, last year's model. I ordered it at A4Less- was quite a bit less expensive than the SR6004, and I don't need the latest model for what I'm doing- just a nice HDMI upgrade from a company that still respects audio. I'm sure I'll be happy with it. Even without the HDMI connection I'm sure it's a better receiver than the Pionner Elite I have anyway.

 

[adwilk]

Well guys, I ended up pulling the trigger on the Marantz SR6003- yup, last year's model. I ordered it at A4Less- was quite a bit less expensive than the SR6004, and I don't need the latest model for what I'm doing- just a nice HDMI upgrade from a company that still respects audio. I'm sure I'll be happy with it. Even without the HDMI connection I'm sure it's a better receiver than the Pionner Elite I have anyway.

Cool! You got a great receiver on the way. And, if you ever feel like you want some more power, it'll be an easy upgrade to add some external amplification. Congrats.

 

[jostenmeat]

I personally wouldn't "waste" (harsh word) my money on the likes of Rotel, NAD, or other higher end brands. The likes of Denon, Yammy, Onkyo and Marantz will easily do what you want without extra coin for a name.

I am also in the camp that thinks this is harsh. It's not like Rotel and NAD are in the same camp as Pass Labs, Primare, or whatever. My impression is that Rotel and NAD (or Outlaw/Adcom, Emotiva, etc) were introduced to be more value oriented as far as consumer mch amps. FWIW, I'm pretty sure there are AHers here who paid more just for a receiver (Marantz, Denon, etc) than my Onkyo/NAD combo. IOW, I don't think it's just a "name". Would there be less value, dollar for dollar, yes, but you can say that about ANY product in the AV world.

There are a couple of other benefits of having the external amp, now that I think about it. One is that if and whenever I upgrade processors, I may be able to get away with that cheap $300 receiver/pre, instead of having to buy the capable amp section all over again. If I wasn't so hell bent on obtaining Audyssey MultEQ XT with my Onkyo, I would have landed the Yam 663 for $350 from J&R w/ AVS discount, as my pre/pro.

That said, there is still a good chance that my processor upgrade will be in the form of a receiver, because I think I may go with 9.1 DSX, though it's not for certain. My amp is 7ch, and I'd need 2 more channels.