Quick question about 5.1 receivers and stereo...

[Shakeydeal]

All Shakeydeal cares about is implying that his tube monoblocks, cable raisers, expensive cables, etc all have a special hi fi sound that recievers can't match even when all are properly driven.

Err, yes. That is correct. Sorry to burst your bubble. But there's not a receiver that is made that can touch my VTL/Sonic Euphoria combo. Call me elitist, it's been said here before about me. My amp isn't the best sounding device of all time, but it beats a receiver. Even without the expensive power cords, footers, cable risers, and fairy dust.

Grant, all amps are NOT created equal. Maybe all receivers are though......


Shakey

 

[zumbo]

Uh oh!

Can't we all just try to stay on the point of each thread?

 

[GranteedEV]

Uh oh!

Can't we all just try to stay on the point of each thread?

Sure.

To the OP: just so you know, when level matched and driving an approriate loudspeaker load within its limitations, all amps, 500w or 25w, receivers or 500lb monoblock tube, in source direct will all sound the same unless there's a big time design flaw compromising fidelity. The same applies to preamplifiers and DACs. What does sound different is auto-calibration and DSP because different algorithms are used to transform the electrical signal. Some say Audessey XT32 sounds great.

 

[KEW]

Zumbo,

The reason I warned the OP to take Shakeydeal's post with a grain of salt and gave explanation is because when I read the original posted question, then read SD's response (quoted below), it implies that SJTrance cannot expect good performance out of a receiver - especially for music. I consider that misinformation and feel it is appropriate to correct it - staying to the point of the thread.
Yes, a separate amp will typically provide more power and better handle complex loads, but unless you are exceeding your receiver's capabilities, a separate amp is not the most beneficial place to spend money on your system.
By now, it is clear from his responses that SJTrance has a pretty sound background. At the time of my post, I did not know that.

It's a receiver, you can't expect too much out of it. Think about it.

You have one box with:

amplifier
preamplifier
processing crap for 5.1 channels
tuner

And it weighs (typically) around 40 lbs. When you cram all that into one box, corners must be cut and performance suffers. And as stated above, the specs for receivers are pretty sketchy.

Home Theater and music are best when separated.

Shakey

 

[zumbo]

Sure.

To the OP: just so you know, when level matched and driving an approriate loudspeaker load within its limitations, all amps, 500w or 25w, receivers or 500lb monoblock tube, in source direct will all sound the same unless there's a big time design flaw compromising fidelity. The same applies to preamplifiers and DACs. What does sound different is auto-calibration and DSP because different algorithms are used to transform the electrical signal. Some say Audessey XT32 sounds great.

I agree.

But what about this?

Shameless question from one of my threads.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71501

Amp technology I am mostly asking about. Anyone?

 

[zumbo]

Zumbo,
Yes, a separate amp will typically provide more power and better handle complex loads, but unless you are exceeding your receiver's capabilities, a separate amp is not the most beneficial place to spend money on your system.

Simple, and to the point without being complex. Love it. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Shakeydeal]

:

just so you know, when level matched and driving an approriate loudspeaker load within its limitations, all amps, 500w or 25w, receivers or 500lb monoblock tube, in source direct will all sound the same unless there's a big time design flaw compromising fidelity. The same applies to preamplifiers and DACs

Utter crap. And I have heard enough equipment in my life to say that NONE of it sounds the same. If you actively listen (not passively as in background music, listening while reading, doing the laundry, etc.) you will hear the differences. Even my wife, who is no audiophile by any stretch, can identify what makes a preamp or cd player sound different from another one.

Shakey

 

[Shakeydeal]

As an added note. I just spent the weekend comparing my VTL ST-150 to a McCormack DNA-1 with Gold+ SMC Audio mods. Both are rated at ~150 watts/channel. One tube, one SS. Both sound extremely good. But to say they sound alike is ridiculous. The McCormack is transparent, dynamic and with exceptional bass control. The VTL is no slouch at any of those things, maybe falling slightly behind in some areas, but it sounds more like real musicians playing music. I could live with either, they are that good. But I choose the VTL, so the McCormack is being sold.

Point is, they do NOT sound alike and neither has glaring flaws. Someone else might call it the other way. But even then, they WOULD have a preference.

Shakey

 

[markw]

Wow. Simply wow.

It looks to me that some see their stereo as the audio equivalent of stuffing a potato in ones pants. Hint: It goes in the front.

 

[GranteedEV]

As an added note. I just spent the weekend comparing my VTL ST-150 to a McCormack DNA-1 with Gold+ SMC Audio mods.

Was it level matched to within .1db?
was it a blind comparision?
was the speaker load appropriate for either amplifier?

I doubt it.

 

[Rickster71]

:

Utter crap. And I have heard enough equipment in my life to say that NONE of it sounds the same. If you actively listen (not passively as in background music, listening while reading, doing the laundry, etc.) you will hear the differences. Even my wife, who is no audiophile by any stretch, can identify what makes a preamp or cd player sound different from another one.

Shakey

In that case you sound like the only person that could pass this test
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html and win the $1 million.

 

[3db]

There sure does seem to be a lot of shunning going-on around here these days, and I am finding it quiet disturbing. I don't know what has went-on with Shakeydeal in other threads, but he is getting a lot of down talking in this one.

As has been clearly pointed-out by everyone, av receivers are pulling your leg. If the unit is 110w, one should assume it has the ability to do 110 x 2.

Now in Shakeydeal defense, a separate amp claiming 110 x 7 certainly has the ability to do 110 x 7. Why he is catching flack for that makes no sense to me what-so-ever.

Zumbo, he's down playing the quality of audio output in today's receivers without providing any proof for his reasons. If an amp and receiver are level matched and playing well within the weaker copmponenst's power ratings, there is no way one can tell teh difference in a DBT test. He's coming across like an elitest audio snob like you fin in Steve Hoffmans forum or in audioasylum.


To Shakey, as a matter of fact, teh pre-amp sectuions of many receivers equal or better the SNR raios of high end boutique equipemnt. So you tell me how seperates are better than AV receivers?

 

[Shakeydeal]

He's coming across like an elitest audio snob like you fin in Steve Hoffmans forum or in audioasylum.

Actually I have been a member of Audio Asylum since 1999, moniker Ozzy. And I'm no snob, but we do have a few of your kind over there too. It all sounds the same, blah, blah, blah.


Shakey

 

[Shakeydeal]

So you tell me how seperates are better than AV receivers?

It's called listening. You should try it sometimes.

Shakey

 

[SJTrance]

MarkW, just read the link and yes, it's interesting to see how they rate the power of these receivers. It's a long time back when I took a statistics course in college when I first realized how it was possible for all the major toothpastes to claim to be the number one dentist recommended brand... research and be designed to say bulls#it. Just because someone says so, it's not always a clear cut and dry case.

I guess the question now playing is this... are there differences with playing an audio track with the same source and speakers using different receivers/amp setups? SPL isn't always the most important thing because, I for one, like to keep my ears a little bit longer. Is there different imaging between different components? Don't people say that Yamaha receivers are a bit more bright? Is this what ShakyDeal is trying to get at? Is he saying that he prefers the nature of the sound that he's getting with his components? What's really happening at normal listening volumes?

 

[GranteedEV]

Don't people say that Yamaha receivers are a bit more bright? Is this what ShakyDeal is trying to get at? Is he saying that he prefers the nature of the sound that he's getting with his components? What's really happening at normal listening volumes?

Perhaps in the mid 60s when this sort of technology was just getting kicked off and was in its absolute infancy, there may have been a difference in sound. Certainly back then vacuum tubes were a more common technology.

In its pure direct mode a Yamaha would be neither bright nor warm:

It's exactly what the signal is within audible frequencies.

WHere you may experience a difference in receiver or processor sound is the implementation of Room-EQ software which can vary. Personally I feel Audessey XT32, Logic 7, ARC, and DEQX would likely be the better Auto-EQ technologies as these four seem to have had more budget input to them. Maybe it's just me but YPAO, MCACC, EmoQ, God-forbid DCAC just feel like a way of "not conforming" than actually

Then again, even within Audessey, most people find the Denon/Marantz implementations to wipe the floor with the Onkyo/Integra implementations, and NAD of course adds their own funky Audessey NAD curve to the mix with an intentionally warm sound. This is all signal processing - it can be turned off and when turned off will not alter the signal at all.

And of course, due to misinformation, a person may bring a neutral speaker into a bright room and think to themselves "this electronic is causing the speaker to be bright".

 

[markw]

Perhaps, but the difference are "over-rated" if they exist at all.

I guess the question now playing is this... are there differences with playing an audio track with the same source and speakers using different receivers/amp setups? SPL isn't always the most important thing because, I for one, like to keep my ears a little bit longer. Is there different imaging between different components? Don't people say that Yamaha receivers are a bit more bright? Is this what ShakyDeal is trying to get at? Is he saying that he prefers the nature of the sound that he's getting with his components? What's really happening at normal listening volumes?

First off, when doing a comparison like you're suggesting, volume levels should be matched for all samples. Human nature dictates that one will feel that a louder sample will sound "better" than a lower level one, even if the difference is barely perceptible.

Second, consider that the main differences we hear are on both extremes of the signal chain, not the amp itself. My tale is that once levels are matched, and all else stays the same, one would be hard pressed to tell one from the other, as long as everything is operating within their limits. I think this was touched on before.

This "wipes the floor" bit is based purely on non-scientific "testing" and reminds me of the great Ford/Chevy debates I lived with in junior high school. It's amazing how quickly these tremendous differences evaporate like the morning dew in the early sunlight when the criteria set forth are met and the actual items under test are not known to the subject.

As for tubes, well, some just prefer their music with a touch of even-order harmonics thrown in to smear it just a bit. ...kinda like slathering a fine porterhouse with steak sauce but, hey, it's their steak, not mine. ..just don't try to tell me that it "enhances" the taste of it instead of hiding it.

Remember, I'm talking straight music with no additional processing involved. Additional signal processing adds it's own devils but with HT processors, that's part of that beast. Here, there is no right or wrong: It's all personal preference, much like one preferring blondes, brunettes, or redheads.

But, I can't recall an AVR that doesn't allow NOT using them. (triple negative??)

 

[Shakeydeal]

As for tubes, well, some just prefer their music with a touch of even-order harmonics thrown in to smear it just a bit. ...kinda like slathering a fine porterhouse with steak sauce but, hey, it's their steak, not mine. ..just don't try to tell me that it "enhances" the taste of it instead of hiding it.

What tubes have you been listening to? If you are talking old CJ or Dynaco equipment, yeah, that makes more sense. But I don't go for that sound either. Modern tube equipment is much more linear in nature and neutral in sound. My tube amp is not adding any harmonic distortion that is detectable (in listening) over a well designed SS amp.

Shakey

 

[GranteedEV]

What tubes have you been listening to? If you are talking old CJ or Dynaco equipment, yeah, that makes more sense. But I don't go for that sound either. Modern tube equipment is much more linear in nature and neutral in sound. My tube amp is not adding any harmonic distortion that is detectable (in listening) over a well designed SS amp.

Shakey

Then it should pass with flying colours any DBT or SBT proving that two amps will sound alike when properly level matched and driving an appropriate load.

Of course you would not adhere to such a test condition that might prove a receiver sounds the same as your precious VTLs.

 

[markw]

What tubes have you been listening to? If you are talking old CJ or Dynaco equipment, yeah, that makes more sense. But I don't go for that sound either. Modern tube equipment is much more linear in nature and neutral in sound. My tube amp is not adding any harmonic distortion that is detectable (in listening) over a well designed SS amp.

Shakey

Wanna bet? Say what you want. I'm still not buying it.

Saying you can't detect "it" (in listening) goes totally against you and your ilk saying you can hear differences in cables and various machina dynamica type tweaks*.

So, either you have super hearing and can hear things others can't, or you don't. Ya can't have it both ways, dude.

Just because you buy into your BS, don't expect to sell it without opposition here.

Now, it your sole purpose on this forum is trolling purely to pith in everyone's cornflakes, get used to this treatment.

Enjoy.

* and you do in other posts, as is your total disdain for those who post here. Want me to post some?