Questions Regarding In-Ceiling Speakers...

[PearlcorderS701]

Me and the wife just closed on a new house which we will be moving into within a couple of weeks, and while I really wanted a separate room for a HT/media setup, the small loft that comes with this house simply won't contain the HT gear and furniture, forcing me to make use of the downstairs family room/living room/den for the HT.

The house has pre-wired in-ceiling speakers with painted grilles already in place in this family room which I'd like to utilize, but I am wondering if it is advised, or okay, to use in-ceiling left and right mains and center -- using the in-ceiling surrounds is no problem, but what would be the acoustic downfall of using the pre-installed front three channels?

I realize that ideally, the two front mains and center should come firing from directly in front of you from the area of the display, with the center being right near the screen for dialogue intelligibility, but what would be the harm, if any, of positioning my Sony SXRD rear projection TV in a wall unit and then using the in-ceiling two mains and center directly above and a bit forward from the wall unit position? Will this cause loss of audio coherency as the action takes place onscreen?

Additionally, if I choose to keep my Polk CSi30 center channel, can I use this along with the two in-ceiling mains, even though the positioning will be strange?

 

[deedubb]

I've listened to a system like this and IMO, it was absolutely terrible for movies. In-ceilings for the surrounds isn't a huge problem, but for the L/C/R (esp. the C), I would strongly advise against it.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I've listened to a system like this and IMO, it was absolutely terrible for movies. In-ceilings for the surrounds isn't a huge problem, but for the L/C/R (esp. the C), I would strongly advise against it.

Thank you very much, 'Dub. This is what I thought.

Is this because of the location of the mains and center in relation to the on screen action? It would sound like everything would be coming from the ceiling, no?

 

[markw]

Simple answer

It would sound like everything would be coming from the ceiling, no?

Yes. Can you live with that?

Ceiling speakers are fine for background music (think doctors offices, elevators, and restaurants) and possibly surrounds, but for mains, well...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Yes. Can you live with that?

Ceiling speakers are fine for background music (think doctors offices, elevators, and restaurants) and possibly surrounds, but for mains, well...

Thanks Mark.

Is there any outside possibility that the audio actually wouldn't sound as if it's coming from the ceiling? I suppose no, but just figured I would ask...what gets me is why would home builders put these kinds of arrays in the ceilings possibly knowing that they can't work for a surround system acoustically?

Here's the next battery of concerns though...I currently have a Polk CSi30 center which works absolutely fine for center channel duties, and I'd like to press it into service for the next system in this house. If I go with this center, do I HAVE to match the mains with this speaker for tonal balance/timbre issues? In other words, will I be looking for Polk towers (towers are my preference for the front soundstage) in order to sonically match the CSi center? And will any of the current Polk towers work for this arrangement?

And, another thing I just thought of, based on 'Dub's suggestion that the center would specifically give a problem in the ceiling array, what if I were to use the ceiling left/right mains and then just use the Polk CSi center for center channel duties? Would this simply sound awkward because the mains would be up in the ceiling above the display, and the center would be right near the display?

 

[Serj22]

I can see this being ok if the Tv was on the ceiling in between them and you layed on the floor to watch movies. I only ever saw people have the satellites in the ceiling, maybe the person who owned the house had some kind of "vision"?

"yes, putting all these speakers in the ceiling is my best idea yet! my guests will be chasing the sound not understanding why it sounds so bad or where it's coming from! AHAHAHA! They will go nuts!!!! NUTS LIKE ME!!!"

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I can see this being ok if the Tv was on the ceiling in between them and you layed on the floor to watch movies. I only ever saw people have the satellites in the ceiling, maybe the person who owned the house had some kind of "vision"?

"yes, putting all these speakers in the ceiling is my best idea yet! my guests will be chasing the sound not understanding why it sounds so bad or where it's coming from! AHAHAHA! They will go nuts!!!! NUTS LIKE ME!!!"

This seems to be a common characteristic with all the homes we viewed in this area/state; the in-ceiling mains and center along with the two surrounds.

Are you saying it's okay to have the surrounds (as you called them "satellites") in the ceiling at least?

 

[markw]

Hey!

I can see this being ok if the Tv was on the ceiling in between them and you layed on the floor to watch movies. I only ever saw people have the satellites in the ceiling, maybe the person who owned the house had some kind of "vision"?

"yes, putting all these speakers in the ceiling is my best idea yet! my guests will be chasing the sound not understanding why it sounds so bad or where it's coming from! AHAHAHA! They will go nuts!!!! NUTS LIKE ME!!!"

How did you get my picture?

to the OP: Your front three speakers don't have to be "custom installed" if they are free standing and are on the same plane as the screen/monitor. Wires can be cleverly hidden with a little thought and effort.

 

[deedubb]

The centre is the most important since all the dialogue comes from it. With it in the ceiling, not only will the dialogue not sound very clear (unless you are lying on the floor as mentioned above), but it also won't appear to be coming from the actors on the screen. As for using your Polk centre, but using the L/R in-ceilings, I also would not recommend that. When things pan across the screen, it will sound really weird, going from the ceiling to the screen, then back to the ceiling. If space is an issue, look at getting in-walls for the L/C/R.

 

[walter duque]

Only thing I can come up with that a speaker design like the one in link might work, which seems to be at a 45 degree angle.
http://www.sourcespeaker.com/IC244fin10-07.html

 

[PearlcorderS701]

How did you get my picture?

to the OP: Your front three speakers don't have to be "custom installed" if they are free standing and are on the same plane as the screen/monitor. Wires can be cleverly hidden with a little thought and effort.

Thanks.

So are you saying, essentially, that I don't have to worry about the front three channels not being installed in the ceiling like the surrounds? It's okay that the front three will be free standing (as two towers and a center) and the surrounds are up behind the listening area?

I'm not worried about the wires showing for the front channel application, as we're going to put the screen in a wall unit and the speaker cable from the mains will run behind it so no one will ever see it. My concern, and the basis of this thread, was to ascertain if it was okay to use the already in place in-ceiling front three channels of this new house we bought or if it would sound really bad with dialogue and front action coming from that position.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

The centre is the most important since all the dialogue comes from it. With it in the ceiling, not only will the dialogue not sound very clear (unless you are lying on the floor as mentioned above), but it also won't appear to be coming from the actors on the screen. As for using your Polk centre, but using the L/R in-ceilings, I also would not recommend that. When things pan across the screen, it will sound really weird, going from the ceiling to the screen, then back to the ceiling. If space is an issue, look at getting in-walls for the L/C/R.

Thanks again, 'Dub. Your input is appreciated.

I hear what you're saying regarding all of this; it's not that space is an issue, as you suggest in the bottom part of your statement, it's just that I wanted to maybe utilize the speakers that are already in place in the house already. But space isn't an issue -- there will be room for me to add two mains (preferably towers) to the left and right of the wall unit we will get for the 50" screen, and there will be a place for the center in the unit.

So, you're suggesting not using the one center with the L/R ceilings because of perspective shift and such...makes sense. Just wanted to ask if it was possible or even recommended.

Thus, it seems the decision comes down to getting a new front soundstage array, including all three new front channels, or perhaps utilizing my current Polk CSi30 center and matching new towers with that...which brings me to my next inquiry:

If I keep the Polk CSi30 center, what speakers will match good with them for mains, preferably floorstanding towers? Do they have to be Polks for timbre-matching and tonality and such?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Only thing I can come up with that a speaker design like the one in link might work, which seems to be at a 45 degree angle.
http://www.sourcespeaker.com/IC244fin10-07.html

Thanks for the link, Walter; that solution seems interesting. The speakers can then be angled down from the ceiling towards the listening position. The thing is, I just didn't want to really rip up or replace the speakers the house already has in place.

 

[MDS]

Thus, it seems the decision comes down to getting a new front soundstage array, including all three new front channels, or perhaps utilizing my current Polk CSi30 center and matching new towers with that...which brings me to my next inquiry:

If I keep the Polk CSi30 center, what speakers will match good with them for mains, preferably floorstanding towers? Do they have to be Polks for timbre-matching and tonality and such?

Ideally, you should get Polk towers that match the Polk Center. You can email Polk customer support and ask which towers match the center but you can probably figure it out yourself by looking at their packages on the website. I'd guess that the RTi line would be the match.

I agree with the others about not using in-ceiling speakers for the front soundstage. But, if the front in-ceiling speakers are already there and wired up, you could use at least the left and right in-ceiling speakers as the 'height' speakers for ProLogic IIZ if you buy a receiver (such as Onkyo 607) that supports PLIIZ.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Ideally, you should get Polk towers that match the Polk Center. You can email Polk customer support and ask which towers match the center but you can probably figure it out yourself by looking at their packages on the website. I'd guess that the RTi line would be the match.

Thanks MDS -- in fact, I have already been told by the Polk forum folks that indeed the RTi line would be a sonic match. Unfortunately, I was looking for something more streamlined and narrower in terms of width and heft, as these will flank a wall unit in the HT main room. If I have to get the RTis, I will, but I was looking for something much narrower in shape.

Would any tower work with this center, essentially, though? Do they have to be timbre-matched?

I agree with the others about not using in-ceiling speakers for the front soundstage. But, if the front in-ceiling speakers are already there and wired up, you could use at least the left and right in-ceiling speakers as the 'height' speakers for ProLogic IIZ if you buy a receiver (such as Onkyo 607) that supports PLIIZ.

That's a VERY interesting point and one I didn't think of -- thank you. I could definitely wire those up for height channels if I decide to replace my 605 with the 607 (or any surround height capable model) -- that's not a plan at the moment or in the near future but it was a very interesting point. Thank you.