question

[cerwinmad]

i have a onkyo TX-SR503, and its running VE-12 fronts, VE5C center and VE5M surrounds, and a Velo CHT-10R sub. with fronts set to large (due to the 12 inch drivers and they are rated down to 28Hz) and surrounds/center small witha 80hz crossover its great. i noticed tho if i set sub to no the fronts get alot more low bass, and they sound great, yet with sub on they seem to miss out on the really low bass even set to large. this only happens on DVDs, on CDs they seem to get full range. i tried hooking sub up to the DVD and setting sub to NO on reciever but it seemed like the bass was less, and not as deep even though the two fronts and sub where now all doing the low stuff. are the fronts and sub canceling each other?? are the dolbydigital tracks recorded so the fronts dont get the really low stuff even set to large??

 

[Adam]

It might be the LFE track. The LFE (low frequency effect, which is the .1 in X.1 surround) track is typically routed to the subwoofer unless you set up the receiver to send it to the fronts or to both. I don't see a way to do that with your receiver, so I'm assuming that the LFE track will only go to sub in your system if you set the subwoofer to on in the receiver's menu. The fronts in your system should still be getting the bass that the movie had going to the fronts, but the bass from the speakers set to small (e.g. surround speakers) and LFE channel will be going to the sub.

 

[cerwinmad]

thanks i know what ya mean. cheers for the reply. it does have a double bass option which routes a bass signal to the sub as well as fronts when playing stereo but i turned that off and the sub still output, but the bass from the fronts seemed weaker so i turned it on again. i was interested in having the fronts recieving the LFE track on movies too as with no sub option, they really hit low. but then if i put the sub on the DVD player and set the avr to no sub it seemed weaker than just the sub doing low. does anybody know how low the fronts will be getting? i thought set to large they recived full range but this isnt the case on movies. thanks for any ideas

 

[Alex2507]

I know that MDS would be able to explain this off of the top of his head in like 30 seconds.

 

[CraigV]

The drivers in your main speakers are covering more than just bass - they’re also covering some upper bass (do you have the specs? This will tell you how high they go before being crossed over) and the cabinet is built accordingly. The subwoofer is only set to deliver the lowest of the low notes, and the driver, amp & enclosure are designed for nothing but bass reproduction.

 

[lsiberian]

i have a onkyo TX-SR503, and its running VE-12 fronts, VE5C center and VE5M surrounds, and a Velo CHT-10R sub. with fronts set to large (due to the 12 inch drivers and they are rated down to 28Hz) and surrounds/center small witha 80hz crossover its great. i noticed tho if i set sub to no the fronts get alot more low bass, and they sound great, yet with sub on they seem to miss out on the really low bass even set to large. this only happens on DVDs, on CDs they seem to get full range. i tried hooking sub up to the DVD and setting sub to NO on reciever but it seemed like the bass was less, and not as deep even though the two fronts and sub where now all doing the low stuff. are the fronts and sub canceling each other?? are the dolbydigital tracks recorded so the fronts dont get the really low stuff even set to large??

Set the fronts to small because some receivers won't play stereo music on the sub if you have the fronts set to large(if you ditch the sub then set them back to large)

I don't suggest you push your speakers lower than twice the f3 which in this case is 28hz because in a ported design this abuses the drivers. Though your speakers seem to have subs built in so you may be better off playing them with a lower cutoff.

I suggest you cross the fronts and sub at 50hz first. Try corner loading the sub with the 50hz crossover and move it out a bit if it's boomy.

If that doesn't work. You may need to ditch the sub and build one specializing in lower LFE. Honestly I wouldn't really try integrating this sub with those speakers. I would sell the sub and put the funds toward something capable of deep LFE 20-30hz.

 

[PENG]

but then if i put the sub on the DVD player and set the avr to no sub

What do you mean by "put the sub on the DVD player"?
Regardless, if you have everything hooked up and set up correctly but are still getting weaker bass when sending the same low frequencies to the front and sub simultaneously, then it is possible that some of the bass frequencies from the fronts and the sub may be cancelling one another. To find out for sure if this is happening, you should use test tones of bass frequencies from say 20 to 100 Hz and a sound meter to do a proper calibration by tweaking the phase/parametric EQ dials (assuming they exist) of the sub and/or moving the sub around to find the best combination of sub location and phase/EQ settings.

 

[cerwinmad]

thanks again

in stereo mode the reciever does put out lfe with fronts set too large, so thats fine. on movies on bass heavy scenes the sub will do the lowest stuff and the front twelves will come in a bit higher (still lower than the 80hz i have the surrounds and center crossed over at) i was mainly interested in havin the front twelves doing the LFE on movies as well as the sub, as with cds they all do low and no cancellation. . upon further experimentation with movies i get the best performance setup as is which is fronts set to large, rest small and crossover at 80Hz with sub on direct mode, (deeper bass, more defined, no cancellation). i tried a 60Hz crossover but it sounded better at 80, took away the boominess the center would exhibit on deep male voices. also the CHT-10R actually goes suprisinly low, i have it in the front left corner, and on scenes such as the opening helicopter scene of transformers, skidoosh scene in kungfu panda and others, the bass punchs and rolls across the floor and feels great. no problem filling my room. i presume my placement is reinforcing the lower stuff. it diggs deeper and with more spl than the DB Dynamics 12" or the twin 8" cerwin subs ive had. it will vibrate the roof and windows in my freestanding garage which is about 10 metres away from the house. I like the velodyne anti distortion and overexcursion protection. thanks guys for the help. i have a setup thread if ya want to take a look. oh and to the guy who asked how i had it on the DVD, i simply plugged it into one of the RCA audio outs (analouge) and used the sub crossover.

 

[fast1]

whats LFE? what causes it? anywhere to read up on it?

 

[cerwinmad]

whats LFE? what causes it? anywhere to read up on it?

LFE= Low Frequency Effects (sub bass) the .1 in 5.1 , the sub channel. check the audioholics university on home page, alot of articles on bass and maximising it.

 

[PENG]

oh and to the guy who asked how i had it on the DVD, i simply plugged it into one of the RCA audio outs (analouge) and used the sub crossover.

Thank you for the response. I suppose you know that if you connect your sub to one of the two analog outs you would not get the LFE. The only way you can get the LFE via a DVD analog out is if your DVD player has 5.1 analog out and you plug the player into the .1 (sub out) RCA. Your player only offers two channel analog out.

 

[cerwinmad]

mmmm

well the analouge audio out on the DVD sends the full range audio track, so the sub was reciving this but only playing below 80HZ as i set the subs crossover there. it was putting out bass. the RCA outs must put out the full range sound playing on it or else when you hooked it up to an amp it would not receive full sound. i would have only been receiveing right channel information.

 

[PENG]

well the analouge audio out on the DVD sends the full range audio track, so the sub was reciving this but only playing below 80HZ as i set the subs crossover there. it was putting out bass. the RCA outs must put out the full range sound playing on it or else when you hooked it up to an amp it would not receive full sound. i would have only been receiveing right channel information.

Again, unless I noted your DVD model number wrong, it has RCA analog outs for 2 channels only. So if you play 2 channel source such as stereo CD or Dolby surround sound you will in fact get everything (full range) from those two RCA outs but if you play 5.1 movies you will not get the LFE signal because you don't have the .1 (sub out) RCA. You will get bass because there are bass information in the two front channels, you just don't get the LFE. Obviously you won't get the center and surround channels either and the only to get 5.1 or 7.1 is to use the digital outputs.

 

[cerwinmad]

Ahhh yes i am with you, i tested the idea with the sub on the DVD player using a cd, so i would indeed get low end bass to it. cheers i have settled on the the origional setup, as it had the best sound, it was more of an experiment. thanks for the replys.