Question about hearing subjectivity and new gear (Onkyo receiver).

[ergalthema]

I've recently been upgrading my 13+ year old home theater. It was a Kenwood HTB-504 with Harman Kardon HKB speakers.

First, I replaced the L/R with Philharmonic Affordable Accuracy Monitors (center and surrounds will be replaced soon). The HKBs were mellow in the highs - smooth and gentle, but slightly muffled. I would prefer that to brittle highs. When I was younger, I would have wanted the brightness, but I grew out of that. I would call the color of the cheap HKBs "warm". When I switched the mains out with the AAs, the highs seemed a bit much for me. So, I used the Kenwood's EQ to turn down the treble a notch or two (and the bass up a notch).

After a few days, I found myself flattening out the EQ and preferring that. I contacted the guy who mods the AAs, and he said there really shouldn't be any 'breaking-in' once he ships them. So, I'm guessing my ears/brain needed to adjust to the sound. I continued to enjoy listening to them more and more as I made slight adjustments to the speaker placement.

A couple weeks later I replaced the Kenwood with an Onkyo TX-NR626. Today is the first I've had a chance to sit down and listen to my favorite tracks. I'm very surprised how different it sounds.

Right off the bat, I did the Audyssey calibration. Considering the receiver interface is shown on the TV, there is very little instruction. A simple picture showing an example of microphone placement would have been nice. The first time, I used 3 very different locations in the room. When I tried to listed to stereo music, it sounded really weird and out of phase. I later realized that the downloadable manual has decent instructions. But again, why not just put that in the on-screen display? I recalibrated with closer positions and it sounded better. However, I'm still not sold on Audyssey - at least in my small living room.

I've been a little disappointed with how difficult it has been to control the audio coming from my PS3, Chromecast, USB drive, and turntable. For Blu-ray/DVD, it wasn't too difficult to get it going with the 5.1 formats - but the lip sync was off. Setting the receiver to about 100ms seemed to work. But for CDs in the PS3, the receiver defaulted to "all channel stereo" - spreading the stereo into the surrounds (and center probably). That seemed to default for other 2-channel sources as well, like the Chromecast and USB. The phono defaulted to "Direct", which is a better default, but it doesn't use the sub. I had to change it to "Stereo" to add the sub.

I still don't totally understand when Audyssey is being used or not. I think I have now turned it off for all the sources (also still trying to figure out which settings save after turning the receiver off/on). I figure it might be good for 5.1 movies, but my initial instincts have been to turn it off when I'm listening to 2 channel music.

Anyway, here is my biggest concern at the moment: the quality of the sound. I think I have all the 2 channel music going straight out as 2.1. It all sounds pretty good. In some ways it sounds more clear and 3-dimensional than the Kenwood. But my initial impression is that the sound is a little less natural.

Let me try to explain a little further. The sound from the Onkyo seems to have more presence in the mids, maybe around 2k. Compared to the Kenwood, it kind of sounds like I put megaphones on my ears - giving kind of a magnified impression of the sound. I do feel like I can hear more detail, but that also means hearing more guitar-amp noise and maybe tape hiss. It seems like any clipping or distortion pops out more. I also feel like I hear the reproduction of the sound more - the affect of the components on the signal. It feels more abrasive than the Kenwood. The high-mids remind me of sandpaper for some reason, where I might compare the Kenwood's high-mids to leather and a perfect system to glass - all better than the tin-foil I'd call most low-end systems. My mind keeps coming to the term "gritty" for the Onkyo.

But again, there is a sense that the Onkyo is clear. I'm wondering if my ears might just be getting information they aren't used to and I'm interpreting it as noise/grit when it's really not.

For what it's worth, I don't tend to notice this stuff when I'm wearing ear buds or listening to the Dayton's connected to my computer. My Sony MDR-7506s have always sounded slightly gritty to me though.

Sorry if my metaphors don't translate. And I know this gear is bottom-shelf hi-fi at best, but it's the best I can do right now.

Here is my main question. Do you think the Kenwood is so much worse that it sounds better, or does the Onkyo really sound better and I will grow to appreciate it more?

Also, if you have any insight or suggestions about the Audyssey or other receiver settings, I'd appreciate it.
Part of me thinks that a good system should instantly make me get lost in the sound without thinking about the quality, but I'm not sure if I'm capable of that. I have been listening to so much music lately (often the same tracks as reference material), trying to learn how these components sound and how my brain interprets it. It is almost driving me insane, but I enjoy it. I'll catch myself really rocking out without judgment at times, but that seems to be affected more by my mood than whatever the current configuration I might be testing.

TL;DR Does my old cheaper Kenwood receiver sound that much better than the new Onkyo, or do my ears/brain need more time to adjust?

 

[TLS Guy]

You say you have 2 channel music going out as 2.1, but you do not mention a sub. If you have no sub then you need 2.0 and your speakers need to be set to large.

Next get rid of Audyssey. Audyssey is good for setting levels and distance in a multichannel system, but is a quality spoiler for everything else. If you have a good ear, Audyssey will sound just awful. The reason being it tries to correct fall off of the HF with distance, which is a terrible thing to do.

Since you have a two channel system Audyssey has nothing good to offer you, only the inverse and ruin the rig.

Next your speaker are good, but budget. Now when I design a small speaker that is not going to be used with a sub, I do design it to have a slight HF roll off, otherwise to me they sound aggressive. Those speakers are flat, and to me I expect they would sound aggressive slightly. I would recommend a good sub as your next purchase.

If you have no sub set the speakers to large in your speaker set up menu. If you have a sub, then set them to small and set the crossover to 80 Hz. Then balance the sub level by ear for a start.

Now disable any effect you might have engaged, like Cinema and nonsense like that.

Now engage the Pure Direct mode. This will allow the signal to pass though your Onkyo with no mucking about.

One last thing, make sure the speakers are wired correctly and that you have not accidentally wired a speaker out of phase.

Now put on your favorite CD and see if you have what seems to you to be audio Nirvana. If it is not what you want then you need a better rig, and must mark yourself down as someone with expensive tastes.

 

[ergalthema]

If it is not what you want then you need a better rig, and must mark yourself down as someone with expensive tastes.

I'm thinking that might be the case. However, I had no problems with the sound of the Kenwood.

I do have a Dayton sub that was first tested by the guy who made the AAs. I have been very happy with the sub for the price.

Edit: I've basically done everything else you mentioned. Audyssey off, Direct (which sounds the same as "Stereo" without sub).

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm thinking that might be the case. However, I had no problems with the sound of the Kenwood.

I do have a Dayton sub that was first tested by the guy who made the AAs. I have been very happy with the sub for the price.

Edit: I've basically done everything else you mentioned. Audyssey off, Direct (which sounds the same as "Stereo" without sub).

Well you did have problems with the Kenwood rig, you said it was muffled. However if you like it better use it.

Do you have access to an old two channel receiver, to check whether you like the speakers. I suspect the speakers are actually good for the money.

I have little experience of modern receivers and have never had a chance to really test one. I do hear them at friend houses and it is hard to asses them in a different space with different speakers. However to me they sound gritty.

I'm somewhat unpopular here as I have a high index of suspicion for these AV receivers and don't use them and doubt I ever would.

 

[ergalthema]

Well you did have problems with the Kenwood rig, you said it was muffled. However if you like it better use it.

I always assumed that that cheap Kenwood HTIB could only be improved by a new popular model. The main reason I upgraded was to have HDMI, the newer surround formats, and reduce some cables. It's a tough trade off if the sound isn't as pleasant.

Again, there is a sense that the Onkyo is clear and big. I've just been a bit distracted by that present mid range.

 

[PENG]

Right off the bat, I did the Audyssey calibration. Considering the receiver interface is shown on the TV, there is very little instruction. A simple picture showing an example of microphone placement would have been nice. The first time, I used 3 very different locations in the room. When I tried to listed to stereo music, it sounded really weird and out of phase. I later realized that the downloadable manual has decent instructions. But again, why not just put that in the on-screen display? I recalibrated with closer positions and it sounded better. However, I'm still not sold on Audyssey - at least in my small living room.

Before you run Audyssey you need to read all kinds of instructions on their website carefully and patiently, otherwise you can do worse. I find Audyssey's main benefits are in setting up subwoofers. Aside from that, if you do everything right, it may flatten the frequency response for your left and right speakers in your room at your listening position as it has done for me, but the benefits seem insignificant at the higher frequencies and not you may actually prefer less accurate frequency response. Another good thing about Audyssey is the Dynamic EQ feature, that works very well if you listen at say less than 85 dB average SPL from your sitting position. Again, the main benefits are in the low frequencies so if you have subwoofers or low bass capable main speakers you should try it.

 

[ergalthema]

Before you run Audyssey you need to read all kinds of instructions on their website carefully and patiently, otherwise you can do worse.

After my first calibration turned out so bad, I went back and watched videos, read the manual, read posts like this online, etc.

After the second calibration, it's actually difficult for me to hear what the differences are between Audyssey On, Movie, or Music. I can hear a little difference, but I wasn't sure what it was. So I just turn Audyssey off except when using 5.1.

I have a test sine sweep track that I play, and I think the frequency response may have been more smooth on the lows with Audyssey on. So that matches what you said.

 

[PENG]

After my first calibration turned out so bad, I went back and watched videos, read the manual, read posts like this online, etc.

After the second calibration, it's actually difficult for me to hear what the differences are between Audyssey On, Movie, or Music. I can hear a little difference, but I wasn't sure what it was. So I just turn Audyssey off except when using 5.1.

I have a test sine sweep track that I play, and I think the frequency response may have been more smooth on the lows with Audyssey on. So that matches what you said.

Since you use 5.1 I assume you have a sub. Try leaving Audyssey on but select L/R bypass so it won't do anything with the front speakers. You can then try DEQ, you may like it.