Quality of Sound

[JerryLove]

The late 80s actually has some excellent CD mastering. I believe the reason is that, in the 80s, CDs were only on high-end sound systems (much like modern records) and so were mastered with that in mind.

Even some of the pop stuff (Paul Abdul's self-titled album, for example) are excellent recordings.

CD players at my house range from early 90s Technics through Integra SACD players, to my Sony BD player. Only one I've had issue with was my PS3 (which seems to be an artifact in my PS3 somehow).

 

[j_garcia]

I see several very very experience people disagree with me - I love the fact that all disagreed in a gentlemanly manner! I go way back and have an extensive album collection of rock, jazz, classical and even some opera so I grew up on analog sound. Maybe that is why I prefer a "warm" sound . I have had a cheap cd player on my system at first believing that "it is only 0's and 1's". I was not pleased and so moved up to a Dennon player in the late 80's and then a Marantz about 12 years ago. My crappy recordings (late 80's cd's) did not sound better, but the good one's sounded much much better. I know people with sytems with external dac's that cost as much as my cd player and they sound incredible - but then again they have better components too. Just my opinion since you can't prove better sound. I look forward to reading lot's of posts and contributing too.

The OP is using optical, so the player has zero effect on his sound. That's why it is not part of the discussion.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I see several very very experience people disagree with me - I love the fact that all disagreed in a gentlemanly manner! I go way back and have an extensive album collection of rock, jazz, classical and even some opera so I grew up on analog sound. Maybe that is why I prefer a "warm" sound . I have had a cheap cd player on my system at first believing that "it is only 0's and 1's". I was not pleased and so moved up to a Dennon player in the late 80's and then a Marantz about 12 years ago. My crappy recordings (late 80's cd's) did not sound better, but the good one's sounded much much better. I know people with sytems with external dac's that cost as much as my cd player and they sound incredible - but then again they have better components too. Just my opinion since you can't prove better sound. I look forward to reading lot's of posts and contributing too.

Well, facts matter.
One question though, why do you think the crappy CD's of the 80's didn't change on those player but the good ones did? Makes absolutely no sense at all. The players read what is on the Cd's and covert it to analog. There is no mystery on how to do this, hasn't been for a long time now and no, better parts do not make that much difference what so ever otherwise objective evidence from DBT comparisons would show this and it just doesn't.
External dacs are just not the panacea many think they are.

 

[Sangeet]

Friends,

Let's not deviate from our "topic of discussion" i.e. help me resolve my problem. So.......I visited various electronic stores and looked at following speakers. I took my favorite CD (dire straits) and heard same song on all speaker. given below are my comments :-

Bowers & Wilkins 800D2GB Diamond Series Speaker - Series II -I hated it. Sound was horrible

Bowers & Wilkins 803D2R - I hated it. Not worth. Sound quality was worst than what I have i.e. JBL ES90

Polk RTiA9 - Was kind of OK but not what i wanted.

KLIPSCH RF7 II - I like it very very much but not exactly what i'm looking for.

Klipsch RF-82 II - Was good but not as good as RF7.

Bowers & Wilkins 683 - OK but not satisfied.

Dynaudio AUDIENCE82CH - OK but not satisfied

MARTIN LOGAN VANTAGE DC - My bose speakesr are better. don't understand why they cost so much. Hate they.

Dinitive Technology - SuperTower IDBA - Not as good

Energy CF 70 - Hated them.

Just wanted to update.........

 

[jonnythan]

 

[zieglj01]

Bowers & Wilkins 800D2GB Diamond Series Speaker - Series II -I hated it. Sound was horrible

Bowers & Wilkins 803D2R - I hated it. Not worth. Sound quality was worst than what I have i.e. JBL ES90

Polk RTiA9 - Was kind of OK but not what i wanted.

KLIPSCH RF7 II - I like it very very much but not exactly what i'm looking for.

Klipsch RF-82 II - Was good but not as good as RF7.

Bowers & Wilkins 683 - OK but not satisfied.

Dynaudio AUDIENCE82CH - OK but not satisfied

MARTIN LOGAN VANTAGE DC - My bose speakesr are better. don't understand why they cost so much. Hate they.

Dinitive Technology - SuperTower IDBA - Not as good

Energy CF 70 - Hated them.

Just wanted to update.........

No big surprise, I would not spend time with 80% of that list.
Continue the adventure and have fun.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

MARTIN LOGAN VANTAGE DC - My bose speakesr are better. don't understand why they cost so much. Hate they.
...

The marketplace determines how much people will pay and how much some reviewers rave about them, I would think.

 

[sterling shoote]

OP,

Why not just buy a pair of vintage speakers like those you enjoyed, or something like them on ebay? Vintage JBL L100's, L100t3's, L250's, L300's, and even the fabulous 4435 professional monitor can be found for a fraction of what they cost new. And recognize the deal you are getting as these speakers would start at least three or four thousand per side if it were still possible to make them. Thing is, the economy today makes speakers like these very unlikely.

 

[Sangeet]

OP,

Why not just buy a pair of vintage speakers like those you enjoyed, or something like them on ebay? Vintage JBL L100's, L100t3's, L250's, L300's, and even the fabulous 4435 professional monitor can be found for a fraction of what they cost new. And recognize the deal you are getting as these speakers would start at least three or four thousand per side if it were still possible to make them. Thing is, the economy today makes speakers like these very unlikely.

All of you guys were completely wrong. There is no problem with the speaker. The problem was receiver. I will send you my detail project report later tonight and how the problem is resolved.

 

[Sangeet]

All of you guys were completely wrong. There is no problem with the speaker. The problem was receiver. I will send you my detail project report later tonight and how the problem is resolved.

OK so here is the project report…..
Phase 1
I visited many of the electronics stores in Houston with my CD (Dire straits) and asked all of them to play same song using a pioneers receiver (if available) using 2 channel stereo. They played this CD again and again in different speakers (from $ 400 / pair to $ 16000/pair). Let’s not discuss on make and model. My overall conclusion was that some were ok, some good and some bad.
Phase 2
I went to a home theater store with my CD and asked him to play my CD on a 2 channel Integrated amplifiers or power amplifiers. These were played in at least 8 different speakers and out of these 8 I shortlisted just 2 sets. I had also packed my receiver (Pioneer SC 35) and kept it in my car and requested the shop manager that I would like to test these 2 shortlisted speakers with my receiver. If it sounds the same I will buy one of them. He agreed. I brought my receiver, hooked it up and bang. Same problem. Looks like the sound doesn’t have the punch and fullness. Even the manager agreed. We worked on my receiver controls and option but nothing. After working on it for an hour both of us gave us and agreed that It was strange. Let me tell you that the store owner is a veteran on audio and stereo equipment. He is about 60 year old and is associated with this field for 25 years.
Phase 3
We got a NAD power amplifier and connected that to the pre out of my pioneer receiver. This was connected to the same speaker that I had liked. But same problem.
Phase 4
The dealer had some old integrated amplifier (Onkyo Integra A 8800) and we connected this to the speaker that I had like and the sound was 10 times better than my receiver. I took this amplifier at home and connected my JBL ES 90 and man, it sounded toooo good . I couldn’t believe that it was the same old JBL. They had so much of power, punch and clarify that I was amazed. I could hear each and every instrument clearly and the sound was so crisp. They were 10 times better than any of the system that I heard in phase 1 above.
Conclusion :
Problem was receiver, not speaker. So I would like to buy a new 2 channel amplifiers / integrated amplifier. Please advice. I have already purchased the Onkyo Integra A 8800 (used) but would like to get something better.

 

[JerryLove]

I'm incredulous.

 

[Sangeet]

I'm incredulous.

OK..........

All I can say is that I’m a mechanical engineer and know nothing on electronics and audio engineering but what I have done is just practical application. You guys talk to theory, graphs, harmonics etc but I have spent 2 months on just practical experiments to arrive at this conclusion. Please let me know details of your system. Let’s see if I can give you some advice.

 

[JerryLove]

Please let me know details of your system. Let’s see if I can give you some advice.

Which system?

Speaking only to what is currently running there're a pair of PSB 400i speakers with a B&W sub (don't want to get back an look) running off a Sony AVR from the 90s. There's a pair of Paradigm S2's backed with a pair of Infinity P360's running of a Marantx 7002. There's a set of entirely custom builds with a pair of Behringer DCX's running as active crossovers powered by 1100 watts of pro-gear.

Today I listened to HSUs setup by Dr.Hsu. I listened to three sets of Salks and spoke at length with Jim Salk (there's about 6 hours of extended listening there). I listened to Emotiva's 7.2 setup for about 2 hours. I listened to EMP.

I've also owned B&W 801Matrix2's , B&W 801Nautilus', B&W DM6's, B&W LM1's, Paradigm Studio 40's, Paradigm Studio 60's, Energy C2, Polk something-or-other (forget now), Green Mountain Europas, Ohm Walsh F's, Martin Logan Electrostatics (forget model), Infinity RSIIIb's, McIntosh XR-10's, McIntosh 717's, and that's assuming I've not forgotten anything.

In addition to the B&W sub I own or have owned subs by SVS, Paradigm, Velodyne, Sony, and Energy. There's also some older garbage (like 3-way box poineer speakers form 1989) I'm not bothering to mention.

In addition to the 5 Yammy pro-amps I own or have owned dedicated amps from Kenwood, McIntosh, Krell, Adcom, and Crown (not counting amps in powered speakers).

My AVR's (past and present) include Denon, Marantz, Integra, Sony, McIntosh, and Pioneer (130W class A/B if you are curious)

Of course: none of that discusses extended listening nor friends systems.

I've spent 5 years on practical experiments... so : sure, what help can you give me?

 

[Sangeet]

OK..........

All I can say is that I’m a mechanical engineer and know nothing on electronics and audio engineering but what I have done is just practical application. You guys talk to theory, graphs, harmonics etc but I have spent 2 months on just practical experiments to arrive at this conclusion. Please let me know details of your system. Let’s see if I can give you some advice.

Jerry my Guruji (respected Guru), I'm sorry if I was rude but I’m soooooooooooo much frustrated with this and have spent so much time on this that I kind of got frustrated. But now that I have got the solution, I’m happy to shares the results with you. Please don’t mind sir……..

 

[JerryLove]

I'm glad you are now happy with your gear.

 

[Sangeet]

Which system?

Speaking only to what is currently running there're a pair of PSB 400i speakers with a B&W sub (don't want to get back an look) running off a Sony AVR from the 90s. There's a pair of Paradigm S2's backed with a pair of Infinity P360's running of a Marantx 7002. There's a set of entirely custom builds with a pair of Behringer DCX's running as active crossovers powered by 1100 watts of pro-gear.

Today I listened to HSUs setup by Dr.Hsu. I listened to three sets of Salks and spoke at length with Jim Salk (there's about 6 hours of extended listening there). I listened to Emotiva's 7.2 setup for about 2 hours. I listened to EMP.

I've also owned B&W 801Matrix2's , B&W 801Nautilus', B&W DM6's, B&W LM1's, Paradigm Studio 40's, Paradigm Studio 60's, Energy C2, Polk something-or-other (forget now), Green Mountain Europas, Ohm Walsh F's, Martin Logan Electrostatics (forget model), Infinity RSIIIb's, McIntosh XR-10's, McIntosh 717's, and that's assuming I've not forgotten anything.

In addition to the B&W sub I own or have owned subs by SVS, Paradigm, Velodyne, Sony, and Energy. There's also some older garbage (like 3-way box poineer speakers form 1989) I'm not bothering to mention.

In addition to the 5 Yammy pro-amps I own or have owned dedicated amps from Kenwood, McIntosh, Krell, Adcom, and Crown (not counting amps in powered speakers).

My AVR's (past and present) include Denon, Marantz, Integra, Sony, McIntosh, and Pioneer (130W class A/B if you are curious)

Of course: none of that discusses extended listening nor friends systems.

I've spent 5 years on practical experiments... so : sure, what help can you give me?

No doubt I call you guru (master)........I'm sorry there are very few in this world to help you but Jerry I'll be troubling you a lot for your help for rest of your life for my audio system.....

I'll be installing my new system tomorrow and if I have any question will let you know.....

 

[sterling shoote]

I wonder what is causing the distortion? Do you suspect the unit is defective or in need of repair? At any rate your approach to uncover the source of the problem ended with a local audio retailer putting a lot of time into your project. I hope you realize your obligation to him.

 

[Sangeet]

I wonder what is causing the distortion? Do you suspect the unit is defective or in need of repair? At any rate your approach to uncover the source of the problem ended with a local audio retailer putting a lot of time into your project. I hope you realize your obligation to him.

Yes and I did send him a thank you card. The good thing was that even he was a audioholic and was more keen than me to go to the bottom of the problem. I later thought that it was kind of became a challange for him and told me that it's a complete mystery. Just to let you know, this guy deals with vinatge stereo sales and repair.

 

[mtrycrafts]

All of you guys were completely wrong. There is no problem with the speaker. The problem was receiver. I will send you my detail project report later tonight and how the problem is resolved.

Well, receivers do go bad and can be tricky to discover that that is the problem.

 

[JerryLove]

Did I misread? I understood him to say that he had some level of problem with all Pioneer receivers across many different speakers:

" asked all of them to play same song using a pioneers receiver (if available) using 2 channel stereo. [...] My overall conclusion was that some were ok, some good and some bad."

Though there's more than one way to read "some good", I interpreted this as "my problems continued".

If, indeed, the problem is related only to the specific Pioneer he owned; that seems reasonable (a broken AVR).