preamps without tone controls

[highfihoney]

i constantly hear how useless tone controls are on a high quality preamp or a pre/pro by dealers & the few friends i have that are in the hobby,ive heard all the reasons like tone controls interfere with the signal,add distortion,color the music & such.

i dont get it at all,ive tried several supposed high end preamps that are usually raved about in reviews & by owners & to me the music sounds sterile & lifeless.

the use of tone controls & loudness contour used to be an industry standard on all preamps then for some reason that i cant comprehend manufacturers now decide not to incorporate them into their designs

as far as i can tell is that the trend of no tone control preamps was started by audio research about 20 years ago with just about every manufacturer now following their lead.

my question's are this.

1 are tone controls a must for your needs?

2 do you think the use of tone controls adversely affects overall performance?

 

[mulester7]

my question's are this.

1 are tone controls a must for your needs?

2 do you think the use of tone controls adversely affects overall performance?

.....question one....it all depends on the quality of your speakers and whether they were produced to hopefully please you with the tone controls dead flat, ie-the +/- db rating top-to-bottom of the speakers....the quality and strength of the amp sections you are powering the speakers with enters into the mix also.....

.....question two....not if a compensation is needed according to your tastes.....

 

[highfihoney]

where i begin to loose interest with non tone type preamps is when the source material/genre is changed drasticly,i find it impossible to go from rock music to jazz without tweaking tone or loudness in some way,it may be a mute point for people with narrow listening tastes but i cant see me ever getting by without the added controls.

 

[zumbo]

Am I suppose to vote for the question I want to answer?

 

[ruadmaa]

Use Of Tone Controls

i constantly hear how useless tone controls are on a high quality preamp or a pre/pro by dealers & the few friends i have that are in the hobby,ive heard all the reasons like tone controls interfere with the signal,add distortion,color the music & such.

i dont get it at all,ive tried several supposed high end preamps that are usually raved about in reviews & by owners & to me the music sounds sterile & lifeless.

the use of tone controls & loudness contour used to be an industry standard on all preamps then for some reason that i cant comprehend manufacturers now decide not to incorporate them into their designs

as far as i can tell is that the trend of no tone control preamps was started by audio research about 20 years ago with just about every manufacturer now following their lead.

my question's are this.

1 are tone controls a must for your needs?

2 do you think the use of tone controls adversely affects overall performance?

It's amazing how many people in this hobby think that it is somehow "high end" not to use tone controls. They very foolishly think that the "detente" position, or center position on their tone control somehow insures that they are listening to a "flat" signal. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are so many variables that come into play that it boggles the mind. Anything from room acoustics, original recorded material, speakers, and a host of other audio affecting parameters come into play. To not use a tone control is, IN MY OPINION, rather foolish.

 

[Buckle-meister]

To not use a tone control is, IN MY OPINION, rather foolish.

I disagree, but more with the principle of using tone controls than the practice of it.

I've nothing against people using tone controls. They can suit themselves as far as I'm concerned. But let's not forget that at least in principle, the recording engineer should know a lot more than you or I about what is the right or wrong amount of treble here, and bass there, and so should end up laying down the mix as it was meant to be heard. For me, the minute you start using tone controls, you are effectively listening to a corruption of the original. One could argue quite legitimately that the room's acoustics probably prevent you from hearing the mix as it was recorded anyway, but for me this is a separate issue. You can sort out your room's acoustics and so approach hearing the mix as intended without ever having to use tone controls.

 

[ruadmaa]

Use Of Tone Controls

I disagree, but more with the principle of using tone controls than the practice of it.

I've nothing against people using tone controls. They can suit themselves as far as I'm concerned. But let's not forget that at least in principle, the recording engineer should know a lot more than you or I about what is the right or wrong amount of treble here, and bass there, and so should end up laying down the mix as it was meant to be heard. For me, the minute you start using tone controls, you are effectively listening to a corruption of the original. One could argue quite legitimately that the room's acoustics probably prevent you from hearing the mix as it was recorded anyway, but for me this is a separate issue. You can sort out your room's acoustics and so approach hearing the mix as intended without ever having to use tone controls.

How do you know your speakers are playing the signal flat??? Many speakers are bright, some are warm, and many others somewhere inbetween.

 

[lurker10]

Ridiculous...

I am so glad to see someone ask the "forbidden" question about why tone controls disappeared on high end preamps. It makes absolutely no sense, except for the audiophlake marketing that tone controls degrade the sound.

C'mon, we all have lots of CDs, LPs, whatever, from different eras and genre's, all of which were mixed by different engineers, miked by different people, etc. The way it sounded in the mixing room on their monitors does not mean that we will hear it "the way it was intended" on our vastly different systems. We all tweak our systems to our taste, and getting the wide range of mixes to sound good to us in our rooms is not possible.

I have a pretty tasty system for two channel that would be on the audiophlake approved list, but I like tone controls. Not all the time, but when you need them, you need them. I guess I'll get a visit from the audiophlake police to confiscate my preamp!

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I would prefer to have them incase I need them for the badly engineered recordings or really old stuff that has no bass. In general I don't use them but there are always times I might so better to have them.

Alot of us ajust the "tone" of our system when we run a sub and/or run the sub "hot" IMO. I know this isn't really what you are asking but it does speak to the purity of what people do with there systems.

SBF1

 

[highfihoney]

I disagree, but more with the principle of using tone controls than the practice of it.

I've nothing against people using tone controls. They can suit themselves as far as I'm concerned. But let's not forget that at least in principle, the recording engineer should know a lot more than you or I about what is the right or wrong amount of treble here, and bass there, and so should end up laying down the mix as it was meant to be heard. For me, the minute you start using tone controls, you are effectively listening to a corruption of the original. One could argue quite legitimately that the room's acoustics probably prevent you from hearing the mix as it was recorded anyway, but for me this is a separate issue. You can sort out your room's acoustics and so approach hearing the mix as intended without ever having to use tone controls.

hi robbie, i understand(in principal)how come tone/loudness controls are considered by many to alter the signal to where it is not what the recording engineer had in mind but it just dont seem pratical.

if infact non tone control preamps send a truly unaltered signal to the amplifiers with no coloration of their own then it would stand to reason that all non tone control preamps should sound exactly the same which i have found out is not the case at all.

i compared 3 different non tone control preamps from pass labs,mcintosh & audio research in my 2 channel rig & all 3 of the preamps sounded way different in every way,how can 3 seperate preamps sound totally different if they are not altering the signal and are just presenting the recording exactly as the engineer intended?

also going by the statements of many non tone control preamp owners about how x brand preamp sounded better to them over the y brand preamp they were previously running how can the purity of the signal be an issue if they are all supposed to send an unaltered signal.?

 

[highfihoney]

Am I suppose to vote for the question I want to answer?

it looks like i f@%$#d up the voting poll somehow,it figures

damn greenhorns!

 

[Khorn]

I believe music should be listened to the way the listener wants to hear it. I have never had pre-amps with tone controls and I prefer as pure a signal as possible at that stage.

BUT....

No space your speakers are loading into is going to be perfect as well as many recordings may not be that well done or just don’t sound quite the way you want them to. IMHO the best approach would be to use an equalizer specifically designed to the problem at hand.

For broad room corrections such as a chronic “bass in this space” deficiency a good Parametric Equalizer can be placed between the preamp and amp as it would always be in the chain to address the room deficiency.

For “personal preference” corrections of recorded sound a decent Graphic Equalizer plugged into the accessory or tape loop of the preamp can be called upon when needed or left out of the chain when not. A decent EQ can give you far more latitude for correction than a few simple tone controls.

Of course “room tuning” can go a long way to help alleviate some problems but not all and can be very costly.

I believe the above solutions offer the most flexible approach but of course the downside is the cost of a decent quality equalizer .

 

[Buckle-meister]

How do you know your speakers are playing the signal flat?

If I take your statement literally, I know for a fact that my speakers do not play the signal flat. My speakers are in the same boat as 99% of all other speakers in that they play within ±3dB of an flat signal sweep (at 1m). I suspect what you meant though was 'how do you know you are hearing a flat response?' and if that is the case then the answer is simple; I measure the response heard at the listening position from a full range frequency sweep fed through my speakers.

I'm not saying that I have a perfectly flat response. What I'm saying is that I personally won't use such coarse adjustment as tone controls.

I am so glad to see someone ask the "forbidden" question about why tone controls disappeared on high end preamps. It makes absolutely no sense, except for the audiophlake marketing that tone controls degrade the sound.

Makes no sense? If you were the sort to buy a so called 'high-end preamp', then it's not too far a stretch of the imagination to conclude that significant room treatment would be put in place to extract the most from the amp. After all, it is 'high-end'. Perhaps after listening to such a system you would begin to appreciate that tone controls are not so important after all.

...we all have lots of CDs, LPs, whatever, from different eras and genre's, all of which were mixed by different engineers, miked by different people, etc. The way it sounded in the mixing room on their monitors does not mean that we will hear it "the way it was intended" on our vastly different systems. We all tweak our systems to our taste, and getting the wide range of mixes to sound good to us in our rooms is not possible.

How far have you gone to proving true your last statement?

I have a pretty tasty system for two channel that would be on the audiophlake approved list, but I like tone controls. Not all the time, but when you need them, you need them. I guess I'll get a visit from the audiophlake police to confiscate my preamp!

Nobody here has said they shouldn't be used. It's all down to personal preference. If an amp doesn't have tone controls and you want them, don't buy it. Simple.

...i understand(in principal)how come tone/loudness controls are considered by many to alter the signal to where it is not what the recording engineer had in mind but it just dont seem pratical.

Highfihoney (and others), before I start getting blasted for supposedly condemming tone controls, please remember what I wrote previously: I've nothing against people using tone controls. They can suit themselves as far as I'm concerned.

if infact non tone control preamps send a truly unaltered signal to the amplifiers with no coloration of their own then it would stand to reason that all non tone control preamps should sound exactly the same which i have found out is not the case at all.

Oh no no no. The above leads to (the dark side? ) the 'all amps sound the same' argument which I for one am not (at this time) getting involved in.

i compared 3 different non tone control preamps from pass labs,mcintosh & audio research in my 2 channel rig & all 3 of the preamps sounded way different in every way,how can 3 seperate preamps sound totally different if they are not altering the signal and are just presenting the recording exactly as the engineer intended?

Pass. I am not interested in whether or not my amp sounds better or worse than that amp. I am interested in what I hear at the listening position in my room, which is the sum total of the contribution from my CD player, interconnects, amp, speaker cables, speakers and of course the room itself.

Each person may attribute percentages as they see fit.

 

[highfihoney]

Oh no no no. The above leads to (the dark side? ) the 'all amps sound the same' argument which I for one am not (at this time) getting involved in. ;

the dark side,haha ,anyhow,my intent was not to draw anybody into a "can you prove it" contest thats why i attempted to set up a poll but that didnt turn out as i expected ,i firmly believe that amps,preamps & sources do sound different & i wasnt trying to draw out the sheriff(mrtry)

i really & truly cant "hear" the benifit of a pre without tone controls thats why i asked if people had tried both types in their systems & was hoping for comments on both types,i have friends who tell me its because my gear is unresolving or because my amps have autoformers but even in my other rigs ive always prefered tone type preamps.

i enjoy trying out different gear alot & what really bums me out about the whole issue is that most manufacturers do not offer these controls even as an option & that makes trying out different preamps difficult without going into vintage gear.

 

[W_Harding]

Tone Controls?

I have to agree with much of what Khorn said. The typical tone controls, bass and treble, are way too course to fix most frequency response problems introduced by speakers, the room and the interaction between the two. Which is not to say that tone controls can not be useful for adjusting the sound of a recording for one's taste.

What is a good reason to not have tone controls in a preamp? All the tone control circuits I have seen add another amplifier stage within the preamp. By eliminating that extra stage, the designer eliminates any noise and distortion added by that stage. All other things being equal, a preamplifier without tone controls will be quieter and have less distortion than the same unit with tone controls. Will the difference be audible? It depends on how well the tone control circuits are designed and how critical the end user can hear distortion and noise.

 

[zumbo]

I don't use them. I use speakers I like with enough power sent to them to bring-out the sound I want. That's the way I do it, and that will never change.

 

[captbill]

I've come back into the Hi-Fi game late and find all kinds of facinating things, like No Tone Control on Pre-Amps, what gives? Thought there was some special other box you had to buy, come to find out we have a pure signal cult, or pure sound, whatever. For myself, I gotta have tone control, yup, these old ears like to fiddle with all them dials, and change the sound to something the engineers never understood. So here's for tone control. Ciao, Bill

 

[highfihoney]

I've come back into the Hi-Fi game late and find all kinds of facinating things, like No Tone Control on Pre-Amps, what gives? Thought there was some special other box you had to buy, come to find out we have a pure signal cult, or pure sound, whatever. For myself, I gotta have tone control, yup, these old ears like to fiddle with all them dials, and change the sound to something the engineers never understood. So here's for tone control. Ciao, Bill

there are still a few manufacturers that offer true full function preamps.

mcintosh, adcom, quad, accuphase, van alstine, im sure there are a few more but i know these manufacturers still make them.

 

[captbill]

HiFi, I noticed that as I was examing the Mac gear, thought all the pre-amps had tone control, then discovered, no. As I said before, thought we had a new black box to buy. I have two different recordings(CD's) of Scheherazade, one a Sir Thomas Beecham Royal Philharmonic, and the other a Hungarian State Symphony. the Brit played flat is marvelous, but the Hungarian needs help tone wise. I have some digital processors that I like to plug in also, tone control does things to them too. As I get older and I want to march the Coldstream Guards across my den, I need all the help I can get. Tone, gain, all them bells and whistles forever. Ciao, Bill