preamps and sound quality

moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
I've searched and I didn't see threads on this topic so i was wondering if someone can tell me the role of a preamp?

Does it improve sound quality in general?

I am running Totem Forest with a pioneer SC27. I know that Totem marries well with Mac and their combination is great. Eventually, I would like to get a mac power amp and MAYBE a pre amp but I don't know if they pre amp would be necessary?

I know that for music, Totem combined with mac is out of this world. I am just not sure if by adding a power amp to my pioneer will make that audible difference.

What do you think?
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Your SC 27 already has a preamp inside of it. Adding another one will not improve anything. In fact, even if you could arrange a way to kludge it in there, it would simply add another noise generating component into the signal chain.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Yes I know but wouldn't I be able to disable the sc 27's pre amp and use a better quality separate? I would just use the SC 27 as the processor for movies.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Yes I know but wouldn't I be able to disable the sc 27's pre amp and use a better quality separate? I would just use the SC 27 as the processor for movies.
The only thing I can possibly think of is to feed all the sources you want to go through the preamp into the preamp and feed the preamp output directly into your receiver's power amp inputs.

Check your manual and let me know how that works out for ya.
 
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walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
We are taking 2 channel only, right? What kind of inputs are you looking for?
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Well 2 channel for music yes. But it would also be used for HT. I would still use the Sc 27 channels for center and rears. I am just thinking of improving audio quality that's all.

That friggin mx150 mac processsor is way too expensive and I am just thinking about a way to use a mac pre and separate amp for music... and then use the sc 27 (remaining amps for HT) and it's processor.

Back to the remaining question though..... would a pre amp/power amp combo improve sound quality over a power amp/matched with my SC 27...

I am thinking yes.... or would a Mac power amp improve the sound quality of music on its own?????

Cause i've demoed macs paired Totems and they sound better than my Totems paired with the Pioneer... night and day.... so yea... just wondering.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Well 2 channel for music yes. But it would also be used for HT. I would still use the Sc 27 channels for center and rears. I am just thinking of improving audio quality that's all.

That friggin mx150 mac processsor is way too expensive and I am just thinking about a way to use a mac pre and separate amp for music... and then use the sc 27 (remaining amps for HT) and it's processor.

Back to the remaining question though..... would a pre amp/power amp combo improve sound quality over a power amp/matched with my SC 27...

I am thinking yes.... or would a Mc power amp improve the sound quality of music on its own?????

Cause i've demoed macs paired Totems and they sound better than my Totems paired with the Pioneer... night and day.... so yea... just wondering.
What's the power rating on your pioneer? I just checked and you got 140X7 of AVR power. I think all you need is a good poweramp. I had a Denon AVR 140 watts x 7 a few years back and I ended up giving it away for free after a few weeks, reason was total lack of power with all channels driven. I would get a good 2 channel power amp for your fronts and you'll be pleased and it doesn't even have to be a Mc. This http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1322876735&/Threshold-S/450e-Rarely-availa is just an example of one good amp.
 
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moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
What's the power rating on your pioneer? I just checked and you got 140X7 of AVR power. I think all you need is a good poweramp. I had a Denon AVR 140 watts x 7 a few years back and I ended up giving it away for free after a few weeks, reason was total lack of power with all channels driven. I would get a good 2 channel power amp for your fronts and you'll be pleased and it doesn't even have to be a Mc. This Threshold S/450e For Sale | AudiogoN is just an example of one good amp.

You're right 140watts/ channel. But different speakers sound better with different types of equipment. It all depends on the marriage between the 2. For example, I've read posts on Totem on owners who say they emailed Totem and asked what the best pairings would be.. I forget all the makes but one was Mac and some other high end stuff... they also said to stay away from a parasound pre amp because they just don't together well... I don't know... i've always been told that certain speakers work better with certain amps compared to others.
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
Honestly, while I get the theory that separating the pre-amplification stage from the power amp will improve sound quality, in reality the difference is probably negligible. It is possible that thing like DACs can add noise or whatnot. In reality, a decent receiver is designed to minimize problems with the pre-amp stage.

If you were to get a really good pre-amp and a separate power amp, you could probably point to a measurable difference. That difference would most likely be well below the threshold of audibility.

If you want to improve your sound, ditch those Totems which, while they look really nice, are overpriced in terms of sound quality per dollar. I'd get some PSBs or Paradigms which give you an honest bargain in terms of SQ per dollar. Better yet, there are some great DIY designs that blow away commercial speakers for a lot less money.

Jim
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
The Totem website rates the Forest's as,
Impedance: 8 ohms (6.4 minimum)
Sensitivity: 87 dB/m

These are not particularly tough to drive. Barring physiological factors involved in having big watts from a “audiophile” name branded receiver/amp, there is no reason a mid to high end receiver cannot do the job. The Forests are $3-4K. Any receiver costing >$1K will be a pure waste. The MX150 seems to have a street price that is pure lunacy for driving something like the Forests.

Last but not the least, I suspect, controlling the room effects will have a much more perceptible impact than the electronics.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
You're right 140watts/ channel. But different speakers sound better with different types of equipment.
????Do they????

It all depends on the marriage between the 2.
¿¿And what may I ask is the science behind this "" marriage ""??

For example, I've read posts on Totem on owners who say they emailed Totem and asked what the best pairings would be.. I forget all the makes but one was Mac and some other high end stuff...
...and let me guess, you use Oral B toothpaste because it's recommended by the most dentists out there for YOUR teeth.

they also said to stay away from a parasound pre amp because they just don't together well...
Uh huh? And why is that?

i've always been told that certain speakers work better with certain amps compared to others.
And i've always been told to leave milk n cookies for Santa Claus.

Here's the deal; In the world of audio there are two things that dominate: misinformation and imagination.

The onus is on you to identify where the above might be permeating, and to avoid them. Finding useful information is almost impossible so it's easy to just go with the flow and believe everything. But it might cost you thousands of dollars on purchases that don't even make a 0.5% difference in what you hear within the limits of your own speakers.

First of all i took a look at your totems on google and they appear to be very low tuned 2-driver 2-way. My experience with such totem speakers is limited to a singpe audition where they sounded fantastic 3 feet away. then i moved to a realistic distance and asked the guy to turn the volume up, and next thing you know the drivers are bottoming out despite a weak 30 watt demo amp. these speakers are pretty mechanically limited for the purposes people presumably buy them for. I can't imagine using them for anything but a bedroom system. to buy any expensive amp for them to me sounds nonsensical.
 
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moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
The Totem website rates the Forest's as,
Impedance: 8 ohms (6.4 minimum)
Sensitivity: 87 dB/m

These are not particularly tough to drive. Barring physiological factors involved in having big watts from a “audiophile” name branded receiver/amp, there is no reason a mid to high end receiver cannot do the job. The Forests are $3-4K. Any receiver costing >$1K will be a pure waste. The MX150 seems to have a street price that is pure lunacy for driving something like the Forests.

Last but not the least, I suspect, controlling the room effects will have a much more perceptible impact than the electronics.
I will agree with you that driving them is not difficult. That does not mean that better electronics will not make them sound better.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
????Do they????



¿¿And what may I ask is the science behind this "" marriage ""??



...and let me guess, you use Oral B toothpaste because it's recommended by the most dentists out there for YOUR teeth.



Uh huh? And why is that?



And i've always been told to leave milk n cookies for Santa Claus.

Here's the deal; In the world of audio there are two things that dominate: misinformation and imagination.

The onus is on you to identify where the above might be permeating, and to avoid them. Finding useful information is almost impossible so it's easy to just go with the flow and believe everything. But it might cost you thousands of dollars on purchases that don't even make a 0.5% difference in what you hear within the limits of your own speakers.

First of all i took a look at your totems on google and they appear to be very low tuned 2-driver 2-way. My experience with such totem speakers is limited to a singpe audition where they sounded fantastic 3 feet away. then i moved to a realistic distance and asked the guy to turn the volume up, and next thing you know the drivers are bottoming out despite a weak 30 watt demo amp. these speakers are pretty mechanically limited for the purposes people presumably buy them for. I can't imagine using them for anything but a bedroom system. to buy any expensive amp for them to me sounds nonsensical.

I must try the oral B since you mentioned it. Thanks for the tip!

Very good observation... The Totems are not meant to blow your ears off with volume like a PSB can.... That is why parasound was not recommended for it. Lucas Films = large scale which require loud volumes and big rooms.... Have you auditioned speakers with different kinds of amps? If so, maybe you don't see the difference. Also, hearing is unique to everyone. I wouldn't generalize just because you don't see a difference from one amp to the next.

Anyway.... no one has answered the question yet on pre amps...
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Anyway.... no one has answered the question yet on pre amps...
Not that difficult, Google is your friend. Seriously! It took Google 0.17 seconds to find these and 3 minutes for me to draft the post.

Preamplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Preamp: Buying Guide

Back to the remaining question though..... would a pre amp/power amp combo improve sound quality over a power amp/matched with my SC 27...
Is your room treated for room modes and first reflection issues? If not, the answer is no.
Is the speaker placement and calibration already at its optimal? If not, the answer is no.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Last time I listened to the Totem Element Fire, it was driven by a little 2X90 NAD integrated amp. It sounded nice and did not give me the impression it needed more power to sound better. The room was small, may be around 12X20 but the NAD was no where near its limit either. I thought (not 100% sure) the Forest is a notch lower. It may be slighly more difficult to drive than the Fire but not to the point that it would make any difference in terms of pairing them with preamp/amps.

For low level input such as from moving coil cartridges the quality of preamps could be critical whereas for high output media such as discs, HD flac files, etc., the preamp should not be that critical as long as it is of decent quality. Power amps on the other hand could have major impact on sound quality but even then as long as you buy from a reputable company such as Rotel, NAD, Bryston, Parasound, Outlaw, Adcom, ATI or even the low cost Emotiva amps you should be fine. The important thing is to buy more than enough power to ensure the amp will always be operating within its design limits.

What you heard about how certain speakers work better with certain amps are not reliable. They are just hearsays probably from people who either have to justify their spendings to feel good or they truly think they heard the "out of this world" kind of sound due to Placebo effect. Amp manufacturers are not going to design their amps to suit just certain speakers. Their design goal should be to produce amps that just amplify the input signals faithfully, i.e. minimum distortions, linear frequency response, high damping factor, adequate power reserve for peaks etc. It is true that some speakers are more demanding but that's about all there is to consider, again I am talking about decent amps such as those mentioned, not just any amps.

Of couse this is just my opinion but I do typically base my opinion on as much known scientific facts as possible. In the audio world today there really isn't much unknowns that could affect sound quality.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
The Totems are not meant to blow your ears off with volume like a PSB can.... That is why parasound was not recommended for it. Lucas Films = large scale which require loud volumes and big rooms....
How is that a valid reason whatsoever??

So because the totems are wimpy speakers, they'll mate poorly to a well designed parasound preamp?

Yes totems can't handle any power, but that's true whether you are using 1000w mega monoblocks or clipping a 20 watt tube amp. The only difference is that one is overkill for the speaker and the other isn't. I don't see what that has to do with picking which preamp is appropriate :rolleyes: for """marriage"""

If you think that more power comes at the expense of sound quality, then you're also mistaken. Power comes at the expense of cost, not sound quality. There is absolutely no reason, ZILCH, that a parasound PREAMP would "mate poorly" to your totem speakers.

This type of advice comes from the same people who imagine differences between wire, cable raisers, AC outlets, and DAC chips.

Have you auditioned speakers with different kinds of amps? If so, maybe you don't see the difference. Also, hearing is unique to everyone.
But what you describe is total b.s. Speakers don't have "electronics they mate best with". There's good electronics and there's bad electronics and it's as simple as that. Anything else is imagination. And how is hearing unique to everyone? If a difference exists, and one person can hear it, why do presume I would I be unable to hear it after being told exactly what to listen for? the problem is not this however. The problem is the lack of any scientific methodology. With no valid controls in place, and no measured knowledge of what creates differences, you get MISINFORMATION and IMAGINATION rather than a reliable comparision.

I wouldn't generalize just because you don't see a difference from one amp to the next.
What did I generalize??

Anyway.... no one has answered the question yet on pre amps...
re: Pioneer preamp - i've never seen measurements but I suspect they're very weak. I recommend getting something like a marantz AV7005 instead.
 
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moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Last time I listened to the Totem Element Fire, it was driven by a little 2X90 NAD integrated amp. It sounded nice and did not give me the impression it needed more power to sound better. The room was small, may be around 12X20 but the NAD was no where near its limit either. I thought (not 100% sure) the Forest is a notch lower. It may be slighly more difficult to drive than the Fire but not to the point that it would make any difference in terms of pairing them with preamp/amps.

For low level input such as from moving coil cartridges the quality of preamps could be critical whereas for high output media such as discs, HD flac files, etc., the preamp should not be that critical as long as it is of decent quality. Power amps on the other hand could have major impact on sound quality but even then as long as you buy from a reputable company such as Rotel, NAD, Bryston, Parasound, Outlaw, Adcom, ATI or even the low cost Emotiva amps you should be fine. The important thing is to buy more than enough power to ensure the amp will always be operating within its design limits.

What you heard about how certain speakers work better with certain amps are not reliable. They are just hearsays probably from people who either have to justify their spendings to feel good or they truly think they heard the "out of this world" kind of sound due to Placebo effect. Amp manufacturers are not going to design their amps to suit just certain speakers. Their design goal should be to produce amps that just amplify the input signals faithfully, i.e. minimum distortions, linear frequency response, high damping factor, adequate power reserve for peaks etc. It is true that some speakers are more demanding but that's about all there is to consider, again I am talking about decent amps such as those mentioned, not just any amps.

Of couse this is just my opinion but I do typically base my opinion on as much known scientific facts as possible. In the audio world today there really isn't much unknowns that could affect sound quality.
Thanks for your reply :)


*edit* I'd love to demo a parasound amp.
 
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walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
moves
What do you want your speakes to sound like? You've read some of the comments, I am sure. Grant is right on and so is everyone else. There is an old saying "you can't polish a turd". Besides you're looking for a processor and not a pre-amp.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Yes, I did. Way back when.

Anyway.... no one has answered the question yet on pre amps...
You asked if you could use it with your receiver and I answered that. It's just that you didn't like it.

As for improving your sound, well, if you don't like the way those speaker sound with what you have now, don't expect a new amp/preamp to change that.

You just have to put on your big girl panties and just accept the fact that sometimes you simply can't get there from here.

If you wanna use those totems as "they" suggest, I suggest you go out and buy exactly what equipment "they " recommend. You'll most likely find that it's all two channel stuff buy, hey, that's what you're after, isn't it? A "high end" sound? ...and "real" high end doesn't encompass home theatre. Just ask "them".

Methinks that you're gonna learn soon that sometimes you have to spend a lot of money only to learn that you didn't have to spend a lot of money to get the same results. But, advice is free if one is wise enough to avail themselves of it.

Perhaps other forums will give you different answers that might soothe your mind. Solve your problem, probably not, but that doesn't seem to be what you want.
 
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moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
You asked if you could use it with your receiver and I answered that. It's just that you didn't like it.

As for improving your sound, well, if you don't like the way those speaker sound with what you have now, don't expect a new amp/preamp to change that.

You just have to put on your big girl panties and just accept the fact that sometimes you simply can't get there from here.

If you wanna use those totems as "they" suggest, I suggest you go out and buy exactly what equipment "they " recommend. You'll most likely find that it's all two channel stuff buy, hey, that's what you're after, isn't it? A "high end" sound? ...and "real" high end doesn't encompass home theatre. Just ask "them".

Methinks that you're gonna learn soon that sometimes you have to spend a lot of money only to learn that you didn't have to spend a lot of money to get the same results. But, advice is free if one is wise enough to avail themselves of it.

Perhaps other forums will give you different answers that might soothe your mind. Solve your problem, probably not, but that doesn't seem to be what you want.

oh my god... I never said I don't like how my speakers sound... In fact, I love 'em. I just want better. I've got an integrated amp... We all know that separates sound better. My simple question was... what do you think? Should I add a pre amp or just stick with getting a power amp (since I would like to go the separate route). Instead, I got a bunch of "why are you asking this... don't you know???" smart *** comments.
 
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