Power conditioner suggestions..

[bp333]

Hello AV Gurus,

After purchasing all the AV gear I started thinking about power conditioner (PC) as a small investment to protect the gear. I got PureAV-PF60 for $210, just connected it and havent seen noticable difference in audio or video like most reviews stated. I understand that PC are not primarily meant to improve AV quality but protect against power spikes etc. All that said, now I am planning on returning and purchasing PureAV-PF30 for $110 less. Is it worth it. Please suggest?

 

[sholling]

Unless you have absolutely horrible power they are little more than a fancy surge suppressor and will do nothing for audio quality. The better one can be useful with brownouts and dips by adjusting voltage but that's about it. That's what I've used them for. Power here used to dip as low as 90 volts until the power company got its act together. A Belkin would not be my 1st choice for that problem because I don't think they do anything but filtering and surge suppression. Now I do have my TV plugged into a UPS but that's just because I got tired of resetting the clock after power outages and it wasn't that much more than a good surge suppressor.

 

[bp333]

Unless you have absolutely horrible power they are little more than a fancy surge suppressor and will do nothing for audio quality. The better one can be useful with brownouts and dips by adjusting voltage but that's about it. That's what I've used them for. Power here used to dip as low as 90 volts until the power company got its act together. A Belkin would not be my 1st choice for that problem because I don't think they do anything but filtering and surge suppression.

Thanks for the prompt response. Not sure if are suggesting me to get PF30 or look for another brand. Can you make some suggestions? Thanks!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, if you live very close to radio stations and electric company, etc., which will cause all kinds of RF interference, I would not spend any more than $75 on a good Conditioner/Surge Protector.

 

[sholling]

Thanks for the prompt response. Not sure if are suggesting me to get PF30 or look for another brand. Can you make some suggestions? Thanks!

You need a good surge suppressor but beyond that is there a problem that you're trying to solve?

 

[Pyrrho]

.... I got PureAV-PF60 for $210, just connected it and havent seen noticable difference in audio or video like most reviews stated. ...

That is because the "reviews" one reads of such products are often the purest bullshit. Unless there is a serious problem with the power supplied to your home, there will be no audible or visible improvement possible with such devices. In audio in particular, people believe the craziest nonsense imaginable. Whenever reading reviews, ask yourself how it could possibly matter, and if it seems like it could not matter, it probably cannot.

 

[highfigh]

I connected a Furman AC-15 (also sold by Panamax and others- it's the small two outlet model that mounts behind a display) and it cleaned up the picture on my TV, although I will assume any noise was due to my houses' age- it was built in '46 and has aluminum wiring with a central junction point in the hall to the bathroom and bedrooms. The wiring is a general cluster flop and I did notice a difference. However, any video noise I have is very minor and I won't say it made a huge improvement.

I don't sell them based on any claims that they'll improve the video or audio quality because, IMO, if the system was designed and installed properly, it shouldn't have any noise, anyway. I usually try to have a main surge protector at the breaker panel and if I can't, I'll put a filter/conditioner in the rack with a heavy ground wire to the panel when the house has a history of surges, brownouts and/or interruptions. If the power has a tendency to go out completely, I'll put a UPS in where it will do the most good.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think tripplite makes a good U.P.S.

Past that, not only are these things 95% useless, they usually tend to limit available current which in turn limits the abilities of many amplifiers to operate to spec.

 

[westom]

Yeah, if you live very close to radio stations and electric company, etc., which will cause all kinds of RF interference,

Does not matter how clean that AC mains are. Electricity cleaned by some line conditioner is converted back to the 'dirtiest' RF by an RF gnerator inside every electronic appliance.

Electricity - dirtiest or cleanest - is first filtered (by a circuit typically superior to what a line conditioner does). Then converted to much higher voltage DC. Then filtered again. Then converted to high voltage RF. Yes, exterior RF is irrelevant. Electricity is converted back to RF with even higher power levels. Most who recommend line conditioners never learn any any of this.

Then that RF is filtered again. Then converted to DC again. Then filtered again. Every step is equivalent or superior to what then entire line conditioner might do.

If RF and other noise causes audio interference, it comes from that RF generator inside every supply. And since existing filtering inside appliances is so superior, then that RF is unknown to those who, instead, recommend a conditioner. Line conditioner cures a straw man. A placebo. No matter how clean, incoming electricity is converted back to 'dirtiest RF. Then filtered again.

Filters both before and after that RF generator are typically superior to what any line conditioner might do.

 

[highfigh]

I think tripplite makes a good U.P.S.

Past that, not only are these things 95% useless, they usually tend to limit available current which in turn limits the abilities of many amplifiers to operate to spec.

Some conditioners actually have receptacles marked 'Amplifier' because an amp doesn't really need conditioning and for the current-limiting reason you mentioned. They're really for the micro-processors in deceivers, pre-amp/processors and DVD/BD players. If surges reach extreme levels and it occurs on a regular basis, it's time to contact the power supplier so they can get their butts in gear and fix the problem or just leave the equipment off when this is happening. Tube amps can have problems if the voltage goes much higher than 125VAC, especially older ones with old electrolytics or caps with working voltage that's too close to the B+ voltage from their stated 110-117VAC supply.

 

[highfigh]

Does not matter how clean that AC mains are. Electricity cleaned by some line conditioner is converted back to the 'dirtiest' RF by an RF gnerator inside every electronic appliance.

Electricity - dirtiest or cleanest - is first filtered (by a circuit typically superior to what a line conditioner does). Then converted to much higher voltage DC. Then filtered again. Then converted to high voltage RF. Yes, exterior RF is irrelevant. Electricity is converted back to RF with even higher power levels. Most who recommend line conditioners never learn any any of this.

Then that RF is filtered again. Then converted to DC again. Then filtered again. Every step is equivalent or superior to what then entire line conditioner might do.

If RF and other noise causes audio interference, it comes from that RF generator inside every supply. And since existing filtering inside appliances is so superior, then that RF is unknown to those who, instead, recommend a conditioner. Line conditioner cures a straw man. A placebo. No matter how clean, incoming electricity is converted back to 'dirtiest RF. Then filtered again.

Filters both before and after that RF generator are typically superior to what any line conditioner might do.

EVERY power supply? BS! Most power amps don't need higher voltage and unless the other gear has a switching power supply, higher voltage isn't needed then, either. If you're referring to transmitters, try to remember that we're not using them.

Most equipment still uses a power transformer and a bridge rectifier for voltage increases and rectification to DC, then filtered to remove the ripple. If there's a processor, it goes to the HF section but that's usually pretty well shielded and filtered if the design is half-way decent.

 

[bp333]

EVERY power supply? BS! Most power amps don't need higher voltage and unless the other gear has a switching power supply, higher voltage isn't needed then, either. If you're referring to transmitters, try to remember that we're not using them.

Most equipment still uses a power transformer and a bridge rectifier for voltage increases and rectification to DC, then filtered to remove the ripple. If there's a processor, it goes to the HF section but that's usually pretty well shielded and filtered if the design is half-way decent.

In simple terms if I get PF30 for $70 is it a good buy? Bottom line I am thinking it does a better job than a average surge protector. I am not looking this to improve my AV quality.

 

[westom]

EVERY power supply? BS! Most power amps don't need higher voltage and unless the other gear has a switching power supply, higher voltage isn't needed then, either.

As I said, "Most who recommend line conditioners never learn any of this." So many have no idea how standard power supplies work.

To create low voltages (3 volts, 5 volts, 12 volts, etc), a power supply first generates highest voltages - above well above 300 volts. A power supply does conversions from AC to DC to RF to DC again. And does superior filtering between each conversion. Each filter alone does more than 'magic box' conditioners might do. Therefore far more powerful RF generated inside each supply causes no interference.

Many have no knowledge. Never learned that power supplies routinely do superior conditioning. Most do not know lowest voltages are created by first creating highest voltages. These same people would never know the superior filtering and line conditioning is standard in electronics appliances. If RF causes interference, then it is RF is generated inside the supply that causes the interference. Due to superior filtering, even internally created RF causes no interference.

Plug-in line conditioners sell for obscene profits using hype and myth. So many who recommend them have no grasp of the so many conditioning layers already inside each electronic appliance.

What happens to noise? It often gets converted to pefectly smooth DC - to help power electronics.

If the PF30 does what so many claim, then you can post the manufacturer spec number that says so. No spec number? Hearsay is another example of the placebo effect.

 

[highfigh]

In simple terms if I get PF30 for $70 is it a good buy? Bottom line I am thinking it does a better job than a average surge protector. I am not looking this to improve my AV quality.

The first thing I would do is monitor your line voltage. If you see no significant spikes or dips, have no interruptions or other odd occurrences over a fairly long period, I would put a whole house protector at the breaker panel and make sure the grounding is done correctly. If you have occasional power interruptions, I would get some kind of battery backup.

 

[highfigh]

As I said, "Most who recommend line conditioners never learn any of this." So many have no idea how standard power supplies work.

To create low voltages (3 volts, 5 volts, 12 volts, etc), a power supply first generates highest voltages - above well above 300 volts. A power supply does conversions from AC to DC to RF to DC again. And does superior filtering between each conversion. Each filter alone does more than 'magic box' conditioners might do. Therefore far more powerful RF generated inside each supply causes no interference.

Many have no knowledge. Never learned that power supplies routinely do superior conditioning. Most do not know lowest voltages are created by first creating highest voltages. These same people would never know the superior filtering and line conditioning is standard in electronics appliances. If RF causes interference, then it is RF is generated inside the supply that causes the interference. Due to superior filtering, even internally created RF causes no interference.

Plug-in line conditioners sell for obscene profits using hype and myth. So many who recommend them have no grasp of the so many conditioning layers already inside each electronic appliance.

What happens to noise? It often gets converted to pefectly smooth DC - to help power electronics.

If the PF30 does what so many claim, then you can post the manufacturer spec number that says so. No spec number? Hearsay is another example of the placebo effect.

So, power transformers have only one output that provides much higher voltage than the input? Again, BS! Power supply transformers usually have several taps at the secondary and these are then rectified and regulated to the needed DC voltages. There's absolutely no reason to transform the primary voltage to 300+VAC and then drop it to 3, 5 or 12VDC.

Rather than portray ALL power supplies as doing what you described, you really should say that 'some' do this because it's just not true to say that they all work the same way.

Also, anyone who thinks that anything is perfect, as in your reference to "It often gets converted to perfectly smooth DC", is plain wrong. Nothing is perfect but if you're far enough from the truth, it may look that way.

I'm not backing up any particular device and if you actually read all of what I wrote, you should have understood that. I was referring to large fluctuations, not RF super-imposing itself on the power line waveform. Most RF issues are caused by inadequate shielding and RF energy getting into the post-power supply circuitry, usually in the AF section.

 

[westom]

Rather than portray ALL power supplies as doing what you described, you really should say that 'some' do this because it's just not true to say that they all work the same way.

How is 99+% of them only "some"? Electronics cannot obtain the necessary Energy Star and other requirements by doing your obsolete design. Less expensive, more stable, efficient, lighter, smaller, and more robust when it convert AC mains to high voltage DC - and those other conversions. Virtually every supply does as posted. And applies to what the OP has asked.

Those Furmans and other folklore solutions are recommended when knowledge of how virtually every supply works is unknown. Anything the typical Furman does is already done better inside a supply. So much better and for less money than the so long ago obsoleted designs that you are discussing.

Best way to create low, stable, and cleanest voltages starts by filtering and then increasing AC mains to a highest (greater than 300) VDC. Then converting that to 'dirtiest' RF. And back to DC again. Every conversion preceded and succeeded by superior filtering. Does it better. Costs less. And makes line conditioners irrelevant.

Electronics work perfectly ideal even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Just another reason why electronics no longer use an obsolete technology, big iron transformer.

Correctly noted - most problems occur by bypassing the power supply. Some of the most common problems are ground loops, a noise generating peripheral, and even radio waves that may be detected by parasitic diode. Those also are not solve by line conditioners. And (as you most certainly do know from experience) those can be some of the nastier problems to first identify and then eliminate.

 

[GranteedEV]

How is 99+% of them only "some"? Electronics cannot obtain the necessary Energy Star and other requirements by doing your obsolete design. Less expensive, more stable, efficient, lighter, smaller, and more robust when it convert AC mains to high voltage DC - and those other conversions. Virtually every supply does as posted. And applies to what the OP has asked.

99%+ is probably well pushing it. I think High Figh is speaking from experience here, not just regurgitated theory.

 

[westom]

99%+ is probably well pushing it. I think High Figh is speaking from experience here, not just regurgitated theory.

The 99% number is extremely conservative. Even wall wart power supplies operate as posted. It would be difficult if not impossible to find any electronics doing what High Figh has posted. 20 years ago - maybe. Today. Almost impossible.

Want to see why? Go into any Radio Shack. View the size and weight of transformers. An entire power supply must be smaller and lighter than that one transformer. And must do other things that no big iron transformer can do. Show me. Show me these power supplies in stores or web sites that do what he has posted.

An electronic power supply with layers of conversions and filtering do not just cost less. It already does better than what a line conditioner might accomplish.

Why would a manufacturer spend more money to use an inferior supply that could not even meet current international standards? Why do all portable appliances work on any voltage from 85 to 265 volts? Because they do not (and cannot) use power supplies that he has described. Just another reason why the 99% number is too conservative (small).

 

[Whitey80]

I'm not an electrical engineer like some of you.

But I did pick up a Monster HTS2600 from ebay quite a bit ago for $60.

Cured a ground loop hum that came in with a new sub, and slightly staticy image on the tv from time to time with cable. Beyond that, don't know how magical it is, but it did help me.

That's been my limited experience with these, and I like it.

 

[highfigh]

How is 99+% of them only "some"? Electronics cannot obtain the necessary Energy Star and other requirements by doing your obsolete design. Less expensive, more stable, efficient, lighter, smaller, and more robust when it convert AC mains to high voltage DC - and those other conversions. Virtually every supply does as posted. And applies to what the OP has asked.

Those Furmans and other folklore solutions are recommended when knowledge of how virtually every supply works is unknown. Anything the typical Furman does is already done better inside a supply. So much better and for less money than the so long ago obsoleted designs that you are discussing.

Best way to create low, stable, and cleanest voltages starts by filtering and then increasing AC mains to a highest (greater than 300) VDC. Then converting that to 'dirtiest' RF. And back to DC again. Every conversion preceded and succeeded by superior filtering. Does it better. Costs less. And makes line conditioners irrelevant.

Electronics work perfectly ideal even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Just another reason why electronics no longer use an obsolete technology, big iron transformer.

Correctly noted - most problems occur by bypassing the power supply. Some of the most common problems are ground loops, a noise generating peripheral, and even radio waves that may be detected by parasitic diode. Those also are not solve by line conditioners. And (as you most certainly do know from experience) those can be some of the nastier problems to first identify and then eliminate.

How many amplifiers meet Energy Star requirements? Maybe in the Off state, but definitely not when they're ON.

With all of the AC-DC-RF-DC conversions, how would a device with this kind of power supply drive low-impedance loads, or are you referring to things that fall in the "other than amplifiers" range? If so, you should state what kind of devices you're specifying because you write it as if ALL fall in this area.

Re-converting to high voltage and stiff regulation, yes, it's true for a lot of equipment but not for amplifiers that provide a great deal of dynamic headroom and that's why most power conditioner manufacturers have separate receptacles for them and again, some specify that these amplifiers should be plugged into an un-conditioned receptacle.

IIRC, Furman conditioners will provide stable AC voltage from 90VAC-140VAC and then "crowbar" at 180VAC. Munster Power- I haven't seen what they state but I have heard of many instances where the <$100 power strips actually burn up when stressed.