Outlaw vs Emotiva?

[picture_shooter]

Hey all -

Looking to getting my first pre/pro setup (7-channel).

My question to you all is which is the better quality / reliable combo to go with between:

Outlaw 975 + 7075 (7x75W)

and

Emotiva UMC-200 + UPA-700 (7x80W)

I prefer not to mis-match

Thanks all,

 

[Alex2507]

I think I would take the Emo combo simply because j_garcia opted for that. I mean I'm not about to do all the leg work to find out anything but I know John has. No matter what you should opt for a more powerful amp. It's only a matter of time before that starts to eat away at you. It's already bothering me. Maybe Adam will sell you his.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have a 975, and it's a pretty nice product. I like the looks and the fit and finish, and the way the controls work better than the Emotiva CD player I had. For video use the 975 is very good. On the other hand the 975 lacks auto room correction for audio (which I wouldn't use anyway) and has previous generation polled HDMI switching that takes longer than the latest HDMI switching designs, which the Emotiva seems to have. The Emotiva also appears to have analog pass-through, and since the Outlaw doesn't mention it I've assumed it digitizes all inputs. Again, I don't use analog inputs on the 975. Both lack balanced outputs, which I didn't need. Except for room correction you could almost make the choice based on looks or price between the pre-pros.

The amps look essentially equal to me. I don't know if this particular Outlaw amp is built by ATI like other Outlaw amps, but if it is then I would prefer it too. I'd bet the amps sound virtually the same. I'd probably pick the Outlaw because it weighs a bit more, which is a sign of a more robust power supply and more expense put into the design.

I've dealt with both Emotiva and Outlaw product support. I had very good experiences with both, though Outlaw's record is completely unblemished to my knowledge, while some other people haven't been as lucky as I was with Emotiva.

So I'd recommend choosing the Outlaw combo.

 

[picture_shooter]

Irvrobinson -

Everything you mentioned is what I gathered up once I read over the 975's manual.
I honestly do-not mind the manual room-correction / config using a measuring tape / spl meter or heck; I can just copy the YPAO measuring before I unplug my RX-A710 (non pre outs / but a great receiver) out of the room .


You are right about the amp weight between the EMO & Outlaw. As I really like the style / looks of the Emo more, it just stinks that the UMC-200 is "not in stock" and confirm a back order for over 30-days and I don't want to wait that long!! LoL!!


I guess it would make more since to get the outlaw and the combo package-deal is a great price as it would cost more if I bought the items separately (which I didn't plan to). Looks like both warrantys are very good. I never owned either as this will be the beginning of my pre/pro adventure and for some odd reason I hear a whisper to go with the 125x7 amp!! Its really not much more if I do go that route, which I think I should go on ahead and do!!


*** Oh I visited the Outlaw forum and it seems that some people are complaining about the volume on the 975., what is all that about btw?

Thanks u 2 for your feedback.

I have a 975, and it's a pretty nice product. I like the looks and the fit and finish, and the way the controls work better than the Emotiva CD player I had. For video use the 975 is very good. On the other hand the 975 lacks auto room correction for audio (which I wouldn't use anyway) and has previous generation polled HDMI switching that takes longer than the latest HDMI switching designs, which the Emotiva seems to have. The Emotiva also appears to have analog pass-through, and since the Outlaw doesn't mention it I've assumed it digitizes all inputs. Again, I don't use analog inputs on the 975. Both lack balanced outputs, which I didn't need. Except for room correction you could almost make the choice based on looks or price between the pre-pros.

The amps look essentially equal to me. I don't know if this particular Outlaw amp is built by ATI like other Outlaw amps, but if it is then I would prefer it too. I'd bet the amps sound virtually the same. I'd probably pick the Outlaw because it weighs a bit more, which is a sign of a more robust power supply and more expense put into the design.

I've dealt with both Emotiva and Outlaw product support. I had very good experiences with both, though Outlaw's record is completely unblemished to my knowledge, while some other people haven't been as lucky as I was with Emotiva.

So I'd recommend choosing the Outlaw combo.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Oh I visited the Outlaw forum and it seems that some people are complaining about the volume on the 975., what is all that about btw?

And I was one of the people that had a volume level issue with my Sony Blueray player on the 975. Someone from Outlaw spent some time on the phone with me, and it turned out that by changing the audio output mode of the Sony from Dolby to PCM the volume level problem was solved. The 975 probably is a little more temperamental WRT input level than it should be, but I'm no longer having any output level issues.

Outlaw still hasn't sent me the full-size remote, which is annoying. They had a supplier screw-up near the end of their product development cycle on the 975, and had to switch remote suppliers at the last minute. They sent a "temporary" iPhone 4 sized thing that works, but is very range limited. They're sending the full-size remote free, soon I hope. I would guess if you bought a 975 right now you would get a temporary one too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I definitely vote for Outlaw.

 

[fuzz092888]

I definitely vote for Outlaw.

Gee I wonder why coughATIfanboycough

 

[j_garcia]

I am going to say it sounds like neither is without some flaws right now. Room correction is not the big one IMO, the MAIN difference being the types of video sources you need to support - if you have any devices that require analog video support, then the UMC-200 is out. The manual on the UMC-200 is not that great, but I tend to figure things out by poking around anyway Now that I've figured out how to properly use some of the functionality of the 200, I am enjoying it. Matching is a plus, but not a requirement IMO I did choose the UMC-200 partly because I have an Emotiva amp already, but the amp will almost certainly outlive the pre.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Gee I wonder why coughATIfanboycough

What? Seriously? I had no idea ATI makes some amps for Outlaw. Never crossed my mind.

 

[Alex2507]

What? Seriously? I had no idea ATI makes some amps for Outlaw. Never crossed my mind.

I'm sure nobody on the page knows but does ATI make THAT Outlaw amp? I mean the 125 wpc version of that OL amp.

 

[picture_shooter]

And I was one of the people that had a volume level issue with my Sony Blueray player on the 975. Someone from Outlaw spent some time on the phone with me, and it turned out that by changing the audio output mode of the Sony from Dolby to PCM the volume level problem was solved. The 975 probably is a little more temperamental WRT input level than it should be, but I'm no longer having any output level issues.

Outlaw still hasn't sent me the full-size remote, which is annoying. They had a supplier screw-up near the end of their product development cycle on the 975, and had to switch remote suppliers at the last minute. They sent a "temporary" iPhone 4 sized thing that works, but is very range limited. They're sending the full-size remote free, soon I hope. I would guess if you bought a 975 right now you would get a temporary one too.

Thanks for giving me a heads up on the remote concern. I'll call outlaw 1st prior to placing my order here shortly Thanks man

 

[picture_shooter]

I definitely vote for Outlaw.

Good to know from someone that is a fan of Def Tech; Which is what I am going to be pushing with the Outlaw

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good to know from someone that is a fan of Def Tech; Which is what I am going to be pushing with the Outlaw

You have the bipolar DT? Since they already have powered built-in subs, they won't need more than 100wpc. I used to own the BP7000SC & BP7001SC, and even a 50wpc HK AVR powered them just fine.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm sure nobody on the page knows but does ATI make THAT Outlaw amp? I mean the 125 wpc version of that OL amp.

Yeah, I don't know. ATI makes 60, 120, 180, 200, & 300 WPC amps.

I mean they could easily tweak the 120 to 125 WPC, but someone would have to call ATI or Outlaw to confirm.

 

[picture_shooter]

You have the bipolar DT? Since they already have powered built-in subs, they won't need more than 100wpc. I used to own the BP7000SC & BP7001SC, and even a 50wpc HK AVR powered them just fine.

Yes, I have the DT BP7006's, but my speakers I want to pursuit next are the GoldenEar Triton II Towers as I adored them when I listen to them at my local B&M store out here. They were being pushed by a nad amp. I would consider nad, but its a wee bit out of my budget.

But yes, I am looking @ the 7x75 as I know this will be plenty for either speakers (BP7006s & Triton IIs).

 

[PENG]

I can only comment on the power amps. Both have roughly the same rated output but I bet the Outlaw would measure better on the bench. The Emo's power supply transformer is only rated 500VA so I have no idea how they could rate the amp 7X100W into 4 ohms. The Outlaw did not specify transformer size but going by the 1200W maximum power requirement I am quite sure it has a larger transformer than 500VA, likely much larger.

 

[fuzz092888]

I can only comment on the power amps. Both have roughly the same rated output but I bet the Outlaw would measure better on the bench. The Emo's power supply transformer is only rated 500VA so I have no idea how they could rate the amp 7X100W into 4 ohms. The Outlaw did not specify transformer size but going by the 1200W maximum power requirement I am quite sure it has a larger transformer than 500VA, likely much larger.

I forget now, but my old 755 had dual transformers. Both of which were at minimum 500VA I believe. I checked them when I had it open one time, but can't for the life of me remember exactly what they were rated. I believe one was slight larger than the other since one handled the front L/R and the other handled the C/RR/RL.

I think that quality carries over to the other Outlaw amplifier models as well. I know in the larger HT amps the Outlaws have more capacitance than the Emo's per channel as well IIRC.

 

[Steve81]

I can only comment on the power amps. Both have roughly the same rated output but I bet the Outlaw would measure better on the bench.

I would have made that assumption as well, but for curiosity sake, I did a quick search for a bench test of the 7075.
Test Bench for the Web: Outlaw Audio Model 970 Preamplifier/ Processor and Model 7075 Power Amplifier | Sound and Vision Magazine
vs Gene's measurements of the UPA-500
Emotiva UPA-500 Five Channel Power Amplifier Measurements and Analysis — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Into one channel the UPA can deliver 117W/225W into 8 ohms and 4 ohms respectively, continuous full bandwidth with 1% THD+N. Output at clipping (usually also rated at 1% THD+N) for a single channel of the Outlaw is 102W/163W into 8 and 4 ohms, at 1kHz which shouldn't be as demanding. Into two channels Gene benched the Emo to put out 160W into 4 ohms at 1kHz, 1% THD+N; the Outlaw is at rough parity with 155W of output into 4 ohms at 1kHz at clipping. Into 5 channels, the Emo delivers 82W at 1kHz with 1% THD+N; the Outlaw now has a slight advantage of delivering 92W at 1kHz at clipping. On the face of it, I'd daresay in terms of output capabilities the lighter, cheaper Emo holds its own pretty well.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The Sound and Vision tests are pretty much useless. No wonder I don't read those guys.

 

[PENG]

I would have made that assumption as well, but for curiosity sake, I did a quick search for a bench test of the 7075.
Test Bench for the Web: Outlaw Audio Model 970 Preamplifier/ Processor and Model 7075 Power Amplifier | Sound and Vision Magazine
vs Gene's measurements of the UPA-500
Emotiva UPA-500 Five Channel Power Amplifier Measurements and Analysis — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Into one channel the UPA can deliver 117W/225W into 8 ohms and 4 ohms respectively, continuous full bandwidth with 1% THD+N. Output at clipping (usually also rated at 1% THD+N) for a single channel of the Outlaw is 102W/163W into 8 and 4 ohms, at 1kHz which shouldn't be as demanding. Into two channels Gene benched the Emo to put out 160W into 4 ohms at 1kHz, 1% THD+N; the Outlaw is at rough parity with 155W of output into 4 ohms at 1kHz at clipping. Into 5 channels, the Emo delivers 82W at 1kHz with 1% THD+N; the Outlaw now has a slight advantage of delivering 92W at 1kHz at clipping. On the face of it, I'd daresay in terms of output capabilities the lighter, cheaper Emo holds its own pretty well.

I think the problem is we are comparing bench test results from different "benches". The methodologies of the tests/measurements would likely not be the same. I would still bet the other way purely from theoretical stand point. That is, base on typical efficiencies of class A/B amps and then derive the approximate maximum output assuming the transformer is the bottle neck. The Emo has one 500 VA toroidal transformer, under full load condition, say the power factor is 0.9 on the h.v. side, the power demand would be 450W, assuming efficiency at full load can be as high as 80%, the output would be 360W, so you may get 180 WPC with 2 channel running , or 72 WPC X 5. I really don't think class A/B amp can have overall efficiency of better than 80%, and 0.9 p.f. is also very generous. So I really doubt the Emo can do better than 72X5 and 180X2, unless their specified ratings are for short term, and the transformer in that case would be working under overload condition, and that's fine by me. If the same rules are applied to the Outlaw, the Outlaw would still likely come out ahead. Anyway, doubling the power only yields 3 dB so really its not a big deal either way. I just prefer Outlaw if it was my money.